Whither Cellulosic Ethanol?
Posted by nate hagens on August 16, 2006 - 10:25pm
This post presents a perspective on ethanol from lignocellulose by my friend and co-worker, John Benemann. We have worked on, and been immersed in, biofuels and analyses of fuels from biomass processes for over 3 decades. We are to substantial degrees biotechnologists, as well as chemical engineers and have successful processes going today (methane from wastes. You can google Don Augenstein). We have worked long and hard on biofuels for entities including Exxon (long ago), the Electric Power Research Institute, and others. Our carefully considered view, for which we will be happy to provide abundant evidence is that severe barriers remain to ethanol from lignocellulose. The barriers look as daunting as they did 30 years ago. Ethanol from lignocellulose may indeed come to pass. But the odds against are so dismal that a hydrocarbon fueled 200 mile per gallon passenger automobile would be more likely to be developed.
We have been tied up with project work and were not able to participate in the interesting, and extensive Oil Drum discussion regarding Vinod Khosla's views on ethanol from lignocellulose.
Better late than never. I present John Benemann's statement below.
TO THE OIL DRUM - drumbeatI read the presentation of Vinod Khosla and most of the responses. I have some experience in this field, about 30 years of being in the ring of biofuels technology development, with first-row seats, so to speak, on the fights I was not in myself.
Re. lignocellulosic ethanol, I am, bluntly, a skeptic. See our abstract, copied below. This is R&D, not something ready for commercial ventures, at least not in any time, or with any risk ratio, a typical venture capitalist would accept. Perhaps Vinod Khosla is not a typical VC, though I have no basis for assuming that.
Much more important, this technology is not ready for policy decisions. It compares with, for one example only, the near-late-lamented Hydrogen Program of the Bush-Cheney Administration. Coming from the same source, talk about curing our addiction to Middle East oil by substituting for it an addiction to Middle America ethanol, has just as much credibility. I note that all long-term R&D (is there any other?) for hydrogen is being terminated next month by the Dept. of Energy.
Of course, the issue is not whether Vinod Khosla is making a wise investment, one that will make him even richer and his investors too, or the opposite is true, or even what the Bush-Cheney administration dictates that our reality will be. The issue is, does the technology work now, can it be made to work in short order, or can we predict when and if it will work with any assurance?
One thing I notice from this entire discussion is an absence of any arguments based on technology. I am among other things a biotechnologist, and very familiar with the associated chemical engineering issues. I would have expected at least some mention of past and recent experiences, of problems, such as needs for extensive feedstock pretreatment or problems with fermentations, about current R&D focus, at least a few citations to the web. Nothing. Neither from Vinod Khosla nor the 360 odd Oil Drum respondents.
The only information presented is that Vinod Khosla has invested in three different technologies. Well, a fair enough investment strategy, but even with a one out of three chance, this is a long shot, even in the long term, by which I mean over 10 plus years, beyond which there are no crystal balls.
I strongly support R&D in this field. Money would be better spent on that than on just one commercial plant. Or even a pilot plant. And, let me hasten to add, that it is perfectly possible to make ethanol from lignocellulosic biomass, it's just extraordinarily inefficient, with EROEI easily determined to be about 1:5. The Soviets had some wood-to-ethanol plants running during WWII, and kept them going afterwards, with at least one going on until the Soviet Union collapsed. Not a pretty technology, without even looking at the energy balance (cheap coal or then-cheap Soviet natural gas to expensive state subsidized ethanol, an economic model now adopted for corn ethanol in the US.)
And we, in the U.S., even made butanol from seaweed harvested off San Diego during WWI, in a major industrial enterprise that was set up in a few months, a perfect example of necessity as the mother of invention, and showing how fast we can do something when we need to, for our survival. But extrapolating from making explosives for war to transportation fuels for civilians driving SUVs is more than a bit of a reality stretch. I like the analogy of this being the difference between going to the Moon and Mars, another Bush-Cheney vision, I must note. Of course, we still haven't figured out why to go to the Moon, aside from the feel-good factor.
Bottom line, making ethanol from lignocellulosics is a technical issue, actually many separate technical issues: can we really make 60 or 80 or 100 gallons of ethanol per ton of biomass, can we really ferment pentoses outside the laboratory, will we have a positive energy balance and not run this on fossil fuel as we do corn ethanol? And, coming to the details, can we really use commercial enzymes, or the same fermentation vessels that are used in the corn ethanol business, or do we need to go to very, very expensive contained fermentations. And at the end, do we get a high enough ethanol content in the fermentation beer (above 10%) to have a reasonable distillation cost? And, finally, can we put it all together, starting with the necessary pretreatment of lignocellulose (and what kind at what cost?). Actually, some applications for particular, minor, biomass waste resources, could make ethanol now at food processing plants, breweries and such, but this is not what Bush-Cheney or Gates-Khosla are promoting, to bring up another "venture" investor's name.
Not that Vinod Khosla lacks information - his semi-public presentations on the topic earlier this year (I saw one of the power point presentations) provide some technology background, which, perhaps not too surprisingly, was almost exactly what was presented just before (or even on) January 31st in the briefing papers for White House, to support the "oil addiction" talk in the State of the Union speech. Another great example of sales of good sounding policy first, supporting facts to be provided later, a well used modus operandi. And now the Bush-Cheney administration has reshaped the federal government funding priorities for biomass R&D, to support their ethanol from lignocellulosics visions.
However, these visions of tens of billions of gallons ethanol per year from biomass must, by all reasonable analysis, be considered a distant possibility not an imminent accomplishment, as is being portrayed. That is the bottom line.
Of course, reasonable researchers will argue about where exactly we are and when and how can we could get there. As one close colleague told me, all the technical problems I talk about (see attached abstract) are actually viewed as "opportunities" by the R&D community. I agree, but there is now the belief that with current high ethanol prices, we have the means to this end at hand. After all, if for the past 25 years we were almost there, according to the National Renewable Energy Laboratory and others working on this. It stands to reason that with ethanol prices two or three times that high we must now be in clover. Right?
Well that is the rub of it. Wrong. We aren't any more "there" or in clover than before. Yes, we can shave down some of the assumed costs to reach such low, low costs, but the assumptions are still there, only slightly closer to reality. Need I point out that there is only one pilot plant operating, Iogen in Canada, at a quarter of initially announced capacity? That is all we really can, and actually need, say about the commercial status of this technolgoy.
Thus jumping on this bandwagon and joining in the suspension of disbelief, which seems to pervade public discourse, outside some participants of this esteemed Peak Oil blog, is premature.
There is more to this argument, however, than just the issue of whether there is real technology (real could be defined, loosely and very charitably as less than $10/gallon of ethanol, or about a $100/mmBtu liquid fuel). The most important question is: what is a better way to use our billion plus ton per year potential biomass resource (and I stress potential, also not real, maybe one or two hundred million tons are real): conversion to ethanol or use for other purposes? Would it not be better to use surplus and waste wood, crop residues, or energy crops (another whole subject) to heat our homes, using wood pellets or even gasification to make heating oils?
And if we really want ethanol from crops, and I would favor some, 10%, to 20%, of our use if ethanol is economically or energetically feasible, would it not be better to grow high starch crops (requiring lower fertilizer inputs than corn)? Then we can make ethanol the way we know how, while using part of the crop residues for the process heat, rather than coal or natural gas. That should be an improvement what we are doing now, the corn to ethanol fiasco.
Well Vinod Khosla is probably correct, as I read him, that there is nothing that can be done about the world as we find it, and the function and reward of capital is to serve the system as is, not as it should be. And when I ask, do we want to drive our SUVs or freeze in our homes, that is rhetorical, as I do realize that the question is becoming irrelevant, the "we" will include only those who can do both, and they won't really care, any more than any other ruling class has, about those that can't heat their houses or drive their cars.
And a final question, should we, including our venture capitalists, foist on to other countries, let me give India as an example I know of personally, our simultaneously myopic energy policy and visionary technology focus? The answers to this and the prior questions are apparent, they hardly need to be answered, but they are not being sufficiently asked.
So I sincerely wish Vinod Khosla all the success in his enterprises. I hope they work for him and his investors, and for all of us. However, I am not enthusiastic about the free enterprise tail enabling -- or even able to enable -- this preordained policy dog to wag. Bluntly, we should not put our trust and future in ethanol from biomass saving the day. No more than in to that prior canard that H2 would save the day after tomorrow (remember those GM ads so long ago, was it last year, saying that todays' toddlers would get their H2 cars for high school graduation?). And remember all the venture capital that went into those hydrogen companies? Anyone into financial forensics? But that is not our problem.
OK, as I said, reasonable people can argue the merits of this case, but these merits, particularly the technical nitty gritty, have not been argued to the extent necessary in this forum, neither by Vinod Khosla nor the many who responded to this blog. I hope to add to knowledge, in a minor way, by pointing this out, and some of the technical issues, and suggesting that ethanol from lignocellulosics is not something we should count on, any more than most of the other 1970s ideas and technologies being re-floated (biodiesel from algae being a personal favorite of mine).
Yes, biofuels are and will be very important, we are already doing some things, and need to do much more. Much work is required, in many areas, from anaerobic digestion to crop production, and including R&D on lignocellulosics to ethanol. Maybe we will get the proverbial breakthroughs. But multiple barriers must be overcome, and betting the farm on just this one ticket, on only ethanol from switchgrass and such, is foolish in the extreme. And that is, what I am afraid, the Bush-Cheneys are now attempting and the Gates-Khoslas accomplishing. This single rathole could easily consume most biofuels funding and, most likely, nothing real will be accomplished.
Another victory for the fossil-nuclear energy companies?
John Benemann
The following abstract is to be presented August 29th at the Conference on Biofuels and Bioenergy: Challenges and Opportunities, Univ. British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada (see www.task39.org).
ETHANOL FROM LIGNOCELLULOSIC BIOMASS - A TECHNO-ECONOMIC ASSESSMENT
John R. Benemann1*,Don C. Augenstein1, Don J. Wilhelm2 and Dale R. Simbeck2
1Institute for Environmental Management, Inc. 4277 Pomona Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94306 *Presenter and contact, jbenemann@aol.com
2SFA Pacific, Inc, 444 Castro St., Suite 720, Mountain View, CA 94041
Proposed lignocellulosic-to-ethanol processes envision a pre-treatment step, to liberate cellulose and hemicelluloses from lignin, followed by a hydrolysis step, to convert the carbohydrates to simpler sugars, and then a yeast or bacterial fermentation step, to yield ethanol, followed by ethanol recovery (distillation, drying). Some steps might be combined, such as in acid hydrolysis (combining pre-treatment and saccharification) or in a simultaneous saccharification-fermentation process. After five decades of intensive R&D, currently only a single pilot plant (Iogen Corp. in Canada) is operating, reportedly producing about one million liters of ethanol per year, though well below its planned capacity.
An independent analysis identified many problems with the currently proposed processes, including the relatively high costs of biomass delivered to commercial-scale plants (which would need to be 200 million liters per year output, or greater, for economics of scale), the problems with pretreatment, the low rates and yields of sugars from enzymatic cellulose hydrolysis, the resulting low sugar and ethanol concentrations, and the overall high energy consumption of the overall process. In addition to not tolerating high ethanol concentrations, genetically engineered organisms developed for combined hexose-pentose fermentations are subject to contamination, which will require prohibitively expensive containment systems.
Even ignoring, as most studies do, such major problems, and using available corn stover and enzymatic hydrolysis, the currently favored biomass resource and process, our techno-economic analysis estimated a cost of ethanol twice as high as that of ethanol from corn. Forest residues and wastes, biomass crops, and municipal wastes are even less promising. The conclusions of this assessment are that none of the existing processes are ready for commercial applications in any foreseeable time frame and that continuing fundamental and applied R&D is required. Some opportunities may exist for near-term applications of cellulose conversion technologies to some specific, modest-scale, agricultural wastes.
Are there a lot of fermentation bugs that make butanol?
If the claims that are made at www.butanol.com are valid, then we should be shifting to butanol production as quickly as we can. The claim is that the per gallon yields from corn are almost the same for butanol as for ethanol, yet butanol has an energy density similar to gasoline, and the distillation process is much less energy intensive.
Well I think you just answered the question about using ethanol for anything but high value needs. If its too expensive to use as a chemical feedstock then its proabably not worthwhile to burn it for general transportation.
If people don't feel its valuable as a feedstock then why the hell use it for transportation ?
Oil/Natural gass feedstocks don't suffer these problems. GTL for example is viable even CTL's.
I think we do need to find a renewable reduced carbon source for future transportation needs mainly the airline industry and critical off grid transportation and for chemical feedstocks.
Ethanol does not solve this problem.
Interesting you mention that I was wondering why they don't do fermentation targeting a alcohol that's insoluble in water then the fermentation product separates and you don't poison your culture and you don't need distillation. Even with butanol if the fermentation culture can survive at its soluble concentration you would just have to decant the excess alcohol.
This seems the way to go to me since it solves lots of problems.
There is some discussion here.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/dupont_bp_and_b.html
Butanol solubility is about 9ml/100ml or 9%v/v so if a culture can withstand that your looking at a residual of 9% of the production remaining in the culture which is not bad.
(So it is "new" like most of the chemical industry)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel
The manipulation of the pH levels to shift the ABE reactions to buytol alcohol is what is new. (Acetone, Butanol,Ethanol)
Yes, I should have been more clear in my wording. Many chemicals have been made from biological processes long before they were made from purely chemical processes, but the claimed ability to make it in commercial quantities from biomass is new.
The new patent is based on keeping the biological portion in the butynol side of the reaction.
(I looked up their patent in the past....I don't want to spend the time looking it up again, so perhaps someone here will)
And
Much more important, this technology is not ready for policy decisions
I have a simple question. Why are we talking about it then?
Who killed the electric car?
That's what this biofuels "debate" is all about. The fantasy, the dream, that people will continue their happy motoring based on liquids from biomass converted to liquids. Forget it. Kunstler's right. We are still trying to invest in a lifestyle that has no future. That's why the subject is so popular.
Let's move on, OK?
That's why these biofuels threads are so popular, IMO.
However, there are lots of other paths we are straying down. CO2 injection for recovery of stranded oil for one. Offshore drilling of America's continental shelves for another. Coal for everything -- power generation, conversion to liquids, you name it. If you believed all the propaganda, the US has more recoverable liquid reserves than Saudi Arabia. I'm not kidding. Biofuels is small potatoes compared to what I just brought up.
Small Potatoes
So, here we are talking about corn, switchgrass, God Knows What to make stuff to put in your car. Give me a break!
I just had an argument with Nick (after some with odograph and eric blair), but to the idiots crowd it is ME who is the "stalker".
I think the car way of living is a dead end. Light rail and better urban policies (implemented by legislators or by pure necessity) is more of an answer.
However, I think we need a liquid fuel substitute for some applications.
Can anyone tell me how good biodiesel from algae could be as a product (efficiency wise and EROEI wise)? I know that in april or may a company in New Zealand did bring a technology to use waste water to produce algae in a closed system. Do anyone think it's a viable technology?
Do I need to go trough the literature to know the complete picture or is this techology just not ready at all?
The University of New Hampshire seems to be a good start to read on this. Is it a good place to start?
I ask all those question because biodiesel from algae is part of my simple solution system to peak oil. I'm currently talking with many city officials and planers in my home town and in nearby town. I dont want to promote a solution that is doomed at the start.
Also I'm preparing for a regional conference for september 23. I will do a speach on the problem and lead a workshop on solutions that can be implemented.
The local high school is also welcoming the idea of giving small conferences in diferent classes. I plan to go talk in geophysics class, geopolitic class, biology and environmnent class and in the brand new nature and environment program. The later is a special program, much like a sport-study or music-study program.
All the work I do here lean on being very credible and well informed. I dont want to mislead people in first place.
Advices on this are welcome!
FWIW, current-technology batteries are more than sufficient to provide lots of personal mobility indefinitely. New cells on the market like the A123Systems' cells used by DeWalt can make an electric which eats Corvettes for breakfast and gets an effective 135 MPG. Don't count the car out.
Has you certainly know, a battery is only a energy storage device albeit this one looks good.
How do you think you can power US normal current demand AND new incomming demand from car recharging using the same old electric generation technology?
You do know that unlike in Quebec most other places use coal, nat gas and oil to make electric power.
Also time and ressources are needed to produce and sell enough "any kind" of car replacement and Hirsh think that we dont have that time. If you own an electric car and is not useful to you because the paradigm has shifted, do you think it will make you look powerful or ridiculous?
Here is the technology I think will be more useful :
in order to give you a rough idea of what is feasible in a big city with a very good public transport system:
Breakdown of personal trips in Berlin, Germany (1998)
Walking: 25%
Cycling: 10%
Public Transport: 27%
Cars, motor-bikes: 38%
Newer figures are not yet available.
Besides, the problem isn't technology (though new technology improves things radically), the problem in the short term is fuel supply. Given that we can cut fuel demand by a factor of 3 or better by burning oil in IGCC turbines and charging batteries compared to gasoline, the backup fuel supply might as well be oil.
He may be right, but parking the guzzling SUV's and driving our old beater econoboxes will buy us a fair amount of time right there.How is an electric car not going to be useful to me? If we wind up without electricity, everybody is screwed. Besides, I can buy PV panels and make my own electricity.
Vehicles are replaced much faster than housing. Urban design may change, but it's always going to trail things with shorter life cycles.
None of the technology that you deem to be useful can be pursued on an individual basis. That's great if light rail is going to help with transportation in the future, but I can't go out in front of my house and start laying down track.
Walking, cycling and skiing...maybe those will be useful in the future, but in current society they face serious limitations. I could bike down to the trolley stop, but that doesn't matter because it doesn't go where I need it to. I could bike to the store, but frankly I'd be afraid of doing so, because the streets are not designed for bikes, and drivers are very inconsiderate of bikes and view them as an annoyance. Regardless, walking and cycling cannot work for me, nor for many others in current society. At the current time they are impractical.
Now, meanwhile, converting a car to EV is something you can both do yourself, and which will allow you to function practically in today's society. Why the animosity toward EVs? You think someone is going to look ridiculous for owning an EV? No more ridiculous than everyone who owns cars and who can't afford to fill them up. And what are we talking about, 20 years down the line when everything has changed? I doubt anyone driving an EV today, or who is thinking about converting to an EV today and does not have one yet, is concerned about what comes to pass in 10 or 20 years. When things are changed maybe the EV won't be needed. I don't see how that makes you look ridiculous?
I really have a hard time seeing how someone who converts to an EV can look ridiculous except if their motivation is purely economic, and then gas prices drop to $0.99 a gallon. I'm sure quite a few are willing to take the risk of that in stride.
That may not be the case with ethanol etc: even if we solve all the nasty fermentation problems, what is the end yield? Not very good.
And two titanic advantages for algae:
It seems that you have to keep them closed, so that they are not invaded by organisms which outcompete the fuel algae but do not produce useful endproducts, and reasonably warm.
And of course cheap.
What about arrays of water+algae filled waterbeds, clear on top (UV resistant of course), black on the bottom, made of cheap plastic, and "swimmming pool tech" connections and pumps to the oil separators?
Put them in the Sonoran desert or South Texas or South Australia or South Arabia (!), fill with seawater.
And the cost of enclosing and maintaining to obtain the oil-based watts VS making, placing and maintining PV cells is?
Ever looked into the regulations about greenhouses?
These days, you can't use glass... it has to re-enforced saftey glass. And that increases the price.
So don't be too sure about the 'alot cheaper'. Unless you don't use glass and use polycarbonite plastic.
The research found that individual cell lipid production was not compatable with cellular reproduction and overall colony growth. Furthermore, microalgae are difficult to cultivate axenically. They are very vulnerable to bacterial contamination, pH fluxuation, and critical Co2 levels.
In 1998 the price of oil was only 20$. I know that the biology has almost nothing to do with that, as I asked I'm more interested in the effectiveness of the solution.
Huge potential = R&D = huge risk = why wasn't done before?
Feasible = investment = jobs = just allocation ressources and effort.
Why in Wikipedia do they talk about the huge differences in yield? From Wikipedia :
Is it a good path to look into or does it smell stinky?
The base unit of energy is the photon. almost every algae scheme you have hardware being built to hold the algae, expose the algae to excessive CO2 and photons to obtain algae fat with fat.
You have capitol costs in running the reactor in addition to making the reactor.
VS
Taking PV cells and converting photons to hi-grade electricity.
All the algae schemes are therefore tied to large producers of CO2. Somehow these CO2 producers will have to have enough photon gathering space to support the algae-photon gathering method. Then they will have to have the space to process the fat algae.
How many CO2 producers have that kind of space?
We DONT need electric power generation, especialy using PV cell. Look at the study done by Ted Trainer for bemol regarding PV cell feasability.
What we need is LIQUID fuel, thus the question about the efficiency of biodiesel from algae.
Really? On what basis are you making that assumption? Based on the way we now live life?
especialy using PV cell. Look at the study done by Ted Trainer for bemol regarding PV cell feasability.
Mr. Trainer analysis is flawed. Horribly flawed.
Basic phyics shows that his analysis is flawed.
The biggest energy input into the biosphere is in the form of photons. PV, Wind, water. organic liquids fuels from whatever source all owe the state from which we extract energy are because of the photons that hit the earth.
Without the running down of the Sun's fusion reaction, there is no energy or life on this planet.
Looking at his 'analysis' "Again a 15% loss in transmission " The reality is that PV is used where it is generated 1st, then sent on the grid...if there is any extra power left. So a 15% "loss" is flaws.
More of his 'analysis':
"The most significant problems for solar electricity supply are set by the need to store energy for supply at night. Storage in the form of hydrogen gas will be assumed here. "
Hydrogen storage? Picking the storage form with the highest conversion penality. There are other menthods, once you unlock your mind from the "we must keep things the way they always have been" mindset. Like supply-based electrical metering.
Tell ya what.... you want to accept Mr. Trainer's paper as some form of ultimate truth. Fine. Lets say that spending the money to create enought PV cells to power the nation is dumb.
Now you make the claimn What we need is LIQUID fuel,
Mr. Trainer says "Therefore the cost of a generating plant 87 million square metres in area would be $130.6 billion."
Iraq war spending to date: Overall, Congress has approved about $192 billion for the Iraq war itself,
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0519/p01s03-usmi.html
Is $192 billion a fine way to keep what you demand LIQUID FUEL?
Yea, using the priamary energy source of photons in the most direct way is just SO costly.
regarding Trainer :
Mr. Trainer analysis is flawed. Horribly flawed.
Basic phyics shows that his analysis is flawed.
gosh, I spent time trying not to sleep reading his paper, the hardest to read I had to in years, what a waste of time!
I havent tought that the storage system using hydrogen was a waste of time and energy. Altough I say to everyone that the hydrogen car is Ilusion :)
What study do you propose for me to read to get more accurate information regarding PV cell yield (that takes into acount capital cost for all the system)
What is the comparison of the capital and maintenance cost of a PV cell VS building a new hydro plant? Where we live we have a 5 month period where the sun is present only 5 to 7 hours a day. My father is selling PV cell since 15 years and prefer selling small wind turbines because the yield is better. I know wind is created by the sun also.
I also take into account that pure biodiesel is gelling at 4 celcius. Thus the solution will only help when using mixed fuel. Our local region is provided with fuel using mainly trucking and next year using train. We are 300 km farther than the end of the oil terminal. I dont expect us to get oil before larger cities get it.
Anyway, biodiesel fuel that could be used 6 month a year with the current capital already available is also the reason why I study the feasability of biodiesel from algae.
As for an electrical power generation, we have lots of capacity that is refrained mainly because people want to keep the river free from damming. I think it's a good thing. If the fuel economy bring the demand down a little bit, we may be able to cope with existing installation.
If we are able to produce biodiesel in an efficient way, we could also use that fuel to power the needed building and transportation equipment to keep the power grid installations humming. Many electric dam are located in remote locations in northerm Quebec, we can reach them only using motor vehicles. I dont think that an all electric (or hybrid) excavator or any building machinery is on an drawing board as we speak. I dont think that it would work either.
I also have questions regarding the balance of system maintenance for any bio fuel powered technology. Lubricants, hydraulic fluids, gasket, plastic and rubber is needed for any vehicle. Will those material be available when needed? I'm just raising a second issue here. Altough I think replacement part would be available trough unused machinery or equipment because of fuel shortage. You know, I have those questions running in my head at night. But it does not refrain me from sleeping either.
As for the cost of war, in Canada we tought it was stupid from the start, we still think it's a stupid thing and I can tell that we will keep thinking it was stupid to start it. But now it was started, you have the problem of being there. I dont imply here that every americain were advocating it but I'm sure that it didnt bring forward a solution. Whether we use military or not oil will peak. I have no power whatsoever in guiding the use of military for keeping the oil flow as it will diminish. Is our country preparing for that? Is the US thinking about it? (yes) Is it going to make a difference afterall? I'm just not sure and I dont have influence in that sphere.
In restropect, what I need to know is not if an other technology would be better or more efficient, I need to know if producing biodiesel from algea is a good idea. If the system is flawed and results only murky, I will just put my energy and time elsewhere.
Algae don't need a specific source of CO2 to grow. The atmosphere is just fine. You don't need a closed reactor, a pond works OK.
I strongly suspect that the schemes where algae are grown in closed reactors with waste CO2, rely on carbon-tax or carbon-credit accounting systems for their overall added value.
What you actually need, at a minimum, for an algae operation is sunlight, air, a nutrient stream, an algae processing facility, and a bit of real estate. As an add-on to a large municipal sewage treatment operation, it looks like a winner. Certainly it is not in competition with PV : there is no actual shortage of photons.
Looking outdoor, I still see the sunshine :) so I guess you have a point!
I think that the company in New Zealand use an open technology and waste water pond from city sewage. I think the capital cost would also be lower than a closed system.
I just finished reading Masanobu Fukuoka "the one straw revolution" and the other book. I think that growing algae using the most natural processes are probably better than trying to use technology to do it.
When studying a technology for power "harvesting or collecting", I also try to remove processes that use or transform energy by adding complexity to the design. I have a feeling that we cannot produce energy, only harvest it. So if we add complexity to the system it will only use more energy to add and maintain that complexity. Capital and maintenance cost is increased and somehow you have to take it into account in the long run.
As for the energy needed to harvest and transform the algae into a liquid fuel (altough I dont know the numbers) could refrain from obtaining a good EROEI ratio, I think the usefulness of the product could overcome the problem.
If we use the algae to transform hydropower (electricity) to biodiesel (HTL or ETL) is it a good way of thinking or is the technology simply not there?
Can a process like this use more current or energy than setting rail almost every where and producing electrical building equipment?
Investment in capital and developpment in one or other technology has to take into account existing rolling capital. It's like upgrading software, you dont start asuming everyone will buy a new computer. I know that in the long run it may only be a bridge. Is it a good bridge? Do I have to put time trying to build an other bridge?
Is anyone has information or papers I can read to know the shortcomming, problem, inherent system difficulties, stuff really preventing biodiesel algae development?
Thanks for letting us know that your post is a strawman.
Algae don't need a specific source of CO2 to grow. The atmosphere is just fine.
And these demonstration systems using regular old air are where?
As an add-on to a large municipal sewage treatment operation, it looks like a winner.
Given the energy input into the average waste system VS trying to gather sunlight on land to power a process that will generate the same level of processing of the average waste processing plant, your "winner" claim is more of a "your winner" per http://www.netjak.com/review.php/537 than a workable idea.
The amount of energy used to bring water to and from our homes is shocking large. Couple that with the cost of failue - cholera and other water borne death - and the whole algae will save us via capture of photons, is a pipe dream.
Cities along coastlines where wind turbines won't get destroyed in windstorms (hurricanes) have a chance to keep up a high energy lifestyle. Why? Because wind turbines in the water don't have to take up land around the city already spoken for with buildings.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.fandom/msg/01b5d27d94622692
The reality of technology and physics killed the electric car, just like it's threatening to kill every other alternative to oil.
Ummm... So we start to produce a product stream af hundreds of millions, maybe billions of tons of "waste" every year from the ethanol plants which is all inoculated with genetically engineered microorganisms capable of doing novel types of fermentation, that must at some point wind up back in "the environment" (lets also call that "in the wild")
Then we sit back and see what effect these organaisms have as they mutate, interbreed, swap genes with wild forms, and change the rates, methods, and products of decomposition of plant materials worldwide.
I can hardly wait. Why not just shoot ourselves now and get it over with?
The probability of a lab-created organism survivin "in the wild" is nil.
There is a solid distinction, however, between sexual and nonsexual organisms, or between completely incompatible organisms. A rabbit-based bioreactor isn't going to combine with a horse-based invader - they'll compete based on whichever utilizes the environment better. Viral mutations blur the lines a bit with genetic material.
As for algalculture, I like this system:
We use floating tanks with high walls on the surface of lakes. We use solar concentrators on one end to power a steam engine which operates a pump between the steam engine boiler and the tank. A second hose runs from the boiler to the water.
When the sun is strong enough, the water is drawn into the boiler, pasteurized (losing a small % as steam), and dumped into the algae tank. When the sun isn't strong, and there's no evaporation to deal with, the pump lays dormant.
The fight is to keep stray DNA out of the breeding stock, which is carefully conserved in greenhouses and laboratories.
I must have missed the memo..
Searching for news links to this, anybody already posted them? That would be telling..
Here's a Bio-Fuel booster piece that continues to suggest to other investors that 'it's solved', however..
"No Longer Over a Barrel"
http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid=22781
"BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (ResourceInvestor.com) -- In the Grimm Brother's fairy tale, Rumpelstiltskin spins straw into gold. Thanks to advances in biotechnology, researchers can now transform straw, and other plant wastes, into "green" gold - cellulosic ethanol."
Wanna buy a bridge over troubled waters?
The following may only be for Short-Term research. (In this administration, is there any other kind?) And noting the source, possibly not in the right loop to know about more distant plans...
"Publication Date:14-Aug-2006
01:00 PM US Eastern Timezone
Source:FuelCellWorks
Projects Led by Electric Transportation Applications and GE Global Research
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage5811.html
"WASHINGTON, DC -- The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) today announced that it intends to fund approximately $1.4 million (subject to negotiation) for two projects to partner with industry to study the economic feasibility of producing hydrogen at existing commercial nuclear power plants. Teams selected by DOE for funding will be headed by Electric Transportation Applications and GE Global Research. Both teams include DOE national laboratories and nuclear utility companies as partners.
"Hydrogen is important to our economy today and will be even more important in the future as a potential clean, renewable carrier of energy, particularly in the transportation area," DOE Assistant Secretary for Nuclear Energy Dennis Spurgeon said. "Finding efficient ways to produce hydrogen by using emissions-free nuclear power has long been an important part of President Bush's energy strategy."
Wasn't linking these to advocate for their project, per se.. just looking at whether I could find anything about the DOE directions regarding Hydrogen.
To me Hydrogen looks like either a red-herring, or a 'controllable commodity'.. such that if it worked out, one could structure a business on the same continual and growing demand idea that has worked so well for oil.
I must have missed the memo..
Can anyone provide proof of this? The DOE's website doesn't seem to say this at all.
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/
I've suspected that both ethanol and hydrogen are diversions engineered by the fossil lobbies. Interesting how that meme is gaining traction.
I believe they contain special bacteria - surely we should be able to "house train" this bacteria to work for us.
:-)
I don't agree nature is constrained in the metals it uses for the key organometallic complexes found in most enzymes.
Manufactured bugs can be made to use metals not normally found in sufficient concentration in nature. Platnium, Reuthenium,
Uranium even.
So there is a vast range of possibilites not explored yet by nature.
Next not all enzymes are in all species combining genetic material to bring together enzymatic pathways that have not yet been put together by nature is also a approach with a vast number of possibilities.
I'm not saying its easy just that the constraints are different therefore different outcomes can be synthesised that would be very rare using natural selection.
Also these bugs don't need to be robust and competitive in fact its better if they have at least one fatal weakness that prevents them from being competitive in the wild.
Obviously using a rare metal is a easy way to have a robust bug that can't live in nature.
Fore example there is no intrinsic reason we could not develop the biological machinery to create synthetic diamonds but I doubt mother nature would take that approach.
A few questions.
To what degree does ethanol (even cellulosic) overlap with other (technically simpler) technologies, and does it have any innate advantages that make it worthwhile to even contemplate?
Basically, if anyone has really good (Joules/tons of input -> Joules/tons of output, $ costs, waste heat consumption, etc...) numbers on these various processes, I'd love to see them. I know the numbers must be out there, but I've never seen anyone pull them all together.
We will never run our complex industrial agricultural infrastructure on the fermented byproduct of that system, much less leak enough out to drive mom and the kids to the soccer game. That would be perpetual energy machine.
Here are five studies that all cite figures of positive 8-10 EROEI for ethanol from sugar cane. I have given page references for three of them and will find and post the others later.
Actually I agree with Engineer Poet (or have been convinced by him), that liquid biofuels in almost any configuration are not going to be a significant contributer to vehicle fuel. However, in the short-term they can and in the long-term biomass electricy could be very important.
I have stated several times that ethanol, from sugar cane, could provide 10% of gloabl vehicle fuel use in the next 10 years. No one has refuted this assertion.
Corn-based ethanol probably won't work and cellulosic may not either. But sugar has a proven track record. Your repeated comments on this subject are wrong and without any supporting evidence.
1) FO Licht presentation to METI,
http://www.meti.go.jp/report/downloadfiles/g30819b40j.pdf
EROEI Calcs: Page 20
2) IEA Automotive Fuels for the Future
http://www.iea.org/textbase/nppdf/free/1990/autofuel99.pdf
3) IEA: Biofuels for Transport
http://www.iea.org/textbase/nppdf/free/2004/biofuels2004.pdf
EROEI calcs: page 60
4) Worldwatch Institute & Government of Germany: Biofuels for Transport (Link to register - study is free)
http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4078
EROEI Calcs (for 12 fuel types): Page 17
5) Potential for Biofuels for Transport in Developing Countries
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/IW3P/IB/2006/01/05/000090341_20060105 161036/Rendered/PDF/ESM3120PAPER0Biofuels.pdf
I think the problem of scale will eventually do these approaches in, but plenty of damage can be done before then. The US EPACT 2005 target for cellulosic ethanol production in 2012 is equivalent to three weeks of gasoline use in the state of California alone. It's a drop compared to the loss of oil one year post peak. But I agree with Robert. Such misadventures suck away money from areas that should be getting it.
"Such misadventures suck away money from areas that should be getting it."
I feel your point is made, for that matter recognized far too seldom.
For some Ancient History: My Ph. D thesis adviser Danny Wang at MIT founded Biogen corp. I was already working on biomethane at a nearby MIT spinoff company 28 years ago. I walked into Danny's office and told him that optimizing organisms would be a hard slog, unlikely to yield benefits more than grudgingly.or in very small increments. The main reasons:
-- It is already to the various organisms' benefit to do exactly what we want, ie make ethanol or in my case methane, and energy, and progeny organisms.
-- The organisms have had the whole earth as a bioreactor, and a billion years of optimization through evolution. And that is toward doing what the organisms want and we humans want, as defined above
It became clear after the initial blizzard of claims that recombinant DNA was not going to give the "better bugs" that so many anticipated. The work of Mary Mandels at Natick, Rutgers work on better ethanol bugs, and a hundred similar projects at SERI/NREL and around the world gave nothing like the anticipated, or perhaps hyped, quantum improvements in ethanol or methane or other biofuel productivity. At Biogen Danny -- and other Biogen Corp. workers I know well -- were shocked later on (about 1980) to find that the costs made manufacture of fuels or chemicals out of the question. We can infer the actual accomplishments by noting that there is essentially nothing going now in the way of fermentation fuels and chemicals that could not have been done with modest improvements in technology extant around 1980.
As to the present, the limitations on, and difficulty of, organism "improvement" through recombinant DNA still stand. Some slight improvements have come about in areas such as heat or tolerance of pH extremes. But the chemical engineering and cost issues of biomass processing on the way to bioethanol, biobutanol, etc. are another area where there are profound and mostly ignored barriers and failures that have been "swept under the rug".
With respect to the "biomass refineries" as widely touted today there is much less there than meets the eye, for the fundamental reasons summarized above.
In essence, excepting approaches that have already worked to the point where we know some cost/performance parameters, but are commonly regarded as niche applications (1) biogas from manure and wastes, (2) combustion including (a) wood/coal cofiring and (b) limited and expensive Swedish wood fired IGCC tests (3) the presently ignored approach of producer gas engine fueling, biofuels will be limited by barriers that will last through the near term, likely a decade or more. My view is that wood stoves, cooking fires, and biomass combustion in the pulp and paper industry will continue to be the most substantial biomass energy contributors for the next decade. There is not much Peak Oil mitigation in the cards, only more political hype.
By the way Remig, who are you? I would like to get in touch and you have no email address listed.
I am Don Augenstein and anyone interested can email me at nietsnegua@aol.com
I do not assert that a genetic engineering path to success is impossible, just a tough slog that is far more difficult than most anticipate.
And, solutions may come from "outside the box" of standard technology we examine today. For example we learn more about how enzymes work as time goes on, from closer quantum-mechanical and other modeling of enzymatic mechanisms. The present enzymes that make the biofuels we want are proteins made of amino acids. That is a consequence of evolution on earth. Non-protein chemosynthetic enzymes are entirely possible and could in principle be made to order. We should be able to find out how, sooner or later. Although it is hard to figure probablities (for example in research it is hard to predict "when will we invent penicillin") I think that it is possible for successes of this sort. Solutions of all sorts may materialize to surprise us in a few years. The prospects for successes from outside the conventional research pursuits now should be as good as those for biorefineries. We should just know where the barriers and successes and failures have been, and be guided by the experience to date and realities as we search for solutions.
If a pile of scrap was to self organize into a robot you would be seeing a contravention of the second law of thermodynamics, and a lot of physics would need to be rewritten. Living systems on the other hand have no problem creating local reversals in entropic flows In fact I think there is a tv program based on living systems (called people)making robots, or maybe its cars, from the contents of junk piles :} anyway this is a "Strawman".
"Genetic engineering consists of rearranging existing material rather than creating anything novel." Nonsense. We can now splice up arbitrary DNA bases into totally novel genes to code for arbitrary protiens.
"Every Miscanthus plant in the world is a genetic engineering lab producing mutants through normal processes and transferring the new genes to other species through the kind services of viruses. Though your lab may be millions of times more efficient in this process, the wild is trillions of times larger." True, but GE allows many more inter-species "firewalls" to be breached. I would be very surprised to learn that an Antarctic fish had ever "naturally" with the aid of only a wild virus, tranfered the gene for the cryoprotectant protien found in its plasma into a tomato plant, or that a human being had ever transfered its insulin making gene sucessfully into a microbe. Or how about some dna from a petunia, cauliflower mosaic virus, and an Agrobacterium each finding themselves in a soybean plant which then was more resistant to the herbicide "Roundup"
Money spent on telling people they're all going to die isn't going to happen anytime soon.
So too this guest article, which seems as much polemical as engineering.
Biofuels are a hot topic and certainly worthy of discussion. Here in Japan though the efforts seem to be more centered on bio-diesel (the latest Energy plan calls for significant expansion) rather than ethanol.
We just can't fade that we're "On The Beach"
What you say is true of many of the peak oil/alternative energy discussion forums that I have visited (and subsequently ignored). But if you think that's what's going on here at TOD, you haven't been around for very long. Or you haven't been paying attention.
Random community members notwithstanding, I don't think any of the editors or contributors are so foolish as to think that "keeping Our Non-Negotiable Way Of Life going" is either possible or desirable. The goal here is to find some combination of energy sources that are sufficient to retain something resembling an industrial base and a technological infrastructure, with the understanding that they will need to look very different in the future than they have in the past. Otherwise, it's dieoff for most of us and back to hunting-gathering for the rest.
Nope. Sugar beets, cattails and jeuserleum artichokes are all options. (Cattails grown in sewage waste leachate fields as a way to 'recapture' some of the nutriants in fecal matter)
Corn looks good because the government gives it tax advantages.
Remember: Ethanol used to represent either excessive crop yield or a way to stablize spoilable crops.
I don't. No offence to the authors but the article lacked hard engineering data, relying instead on lots of assertions wrapped in jargon.
If you boil the article down, it becomes "Current processes are not very efficient, the Iogen plant is producing less than an anticipated, therefore it cannot work".
Also consider that something doesn't have to completely replace gasoline to be a success :)
That pretty much is hard engineering data. Producing any thing at all is possible, if you want to spend 5% of GDP trying it. And if you can't get it to work perfectly on a small scale, you should quit right then.
Or why not build devices to create "wood gas"
http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html
and take teh resulting pyrolysed char and create terra petra soils?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=terra+petra&btnG=Search
If the true boogie-man is CO2 in the air, making terra petra looks like a way that would be carbon negative and increase the ability of the soil to grow things.
For an indication of how the market would decide this issue, compare the energy profit of both processes.
Where's John Candy as I'm working on a new movie: Trains, Chains and Blisters.
And there are always people who will sell their tomarrows for a sheckle today.
What do you want to see? An unsubstainable process (like oil useage) or one that can go on until the sun swallows the earth in an expansion, an asteroid hits, man kills each other off in a global war, the unix date() function rolls over in 2037, or some bio-based thing kills the humans or plants?
From the headline: "biomass delivered to commercial-scale plants (which would need to be 200 million liters per year output, or greater, for economics of scale)" and 'pellet stoves' gets the phosporus and other elements back to the land exactly how?
In a properly funstioning market there is a price difference because there is an actual expression of oppertunity cost. That cost will be expressed in long-term effects on soil fertility and not locking up Carbon in the soil itself.
Here is my vision living in the midwest:
All these approaches must be integrated simulaneously or none of it works in the marketplace. From my perspective only starch ethanol, oil seed biodiesel, solar, wind, and hybrids are commercially scaleable for the next 10 years. But they are only scaleable to a point. They can't replace current consumption of oil. That usage must be reduced somehow. These industries must work together to reduce the need for petroleum energy now and all fossil energy later.
That's not true. I don't dispute the claim that it is net positive. It just isn't great, as you say. It is possible that once you add up all of the secondary inputs and the soil erosion, etc. that it is net negative, but I have consistently given it the benefit of the doubt with respect to being net positive.
Accept my apology on mistating your postion through poor word choice. You have consistently said EROEI is positive, just very poor as you restate above.
It is possible that once you add up all of the secondary inputs and the soil erosion, etc. that it is net negative,
I tend to agree with you here, but there may be a net negative in our convention ag side, with or without ethanol production.
Figuring out how to grow crops without huge oil/NG consumption is a separate issue, but just as big a problem as how to maximize EROEI on ethanol from grain.
No need to apologize. I didn't take offense. I just wanted to clarify.
No, it's not. It is already well established that more labour dependent polyculture is more net energy/food productive than oil/ng dependent monoculture. It is a matter of social organization.
To repeat an earlier point in a different fashion, the problem and economic opportunity (after welfare for corporate agriculture runs dry) turns on the net energy potential of the land. In this competition, ethanol is hopelessy mismatched against solid heating fuel, such as switchgrass pellets.
I expect the abandonment of ethanol welfare programs once natural gas slides off the current production plateau and 'policy makers' have to deal with the outrage at the cost of heating homes and the pressure from the institutional sector (schools, hospitals, etc) and the commercial industrial sector for space heating alternatives.
I agree with this statement on an energy basis but not volume of crop. The market values volume of grain, not the best cost of goods to produce grain. And sustainability is in the eye of the beholder. You have to make money to keep your farm.
This is why large farming operations making 3 cents per bushel are viable but small farms making 5 cents a bushel are not. These numbers are made up but using those and 150 bu/ac corn the large guy keeps $9000 farming 2000 acres ($0.03x150x2000). The little guy keeps $3750 farming 500 acres. Both guys write off all expenses (fuel, capital equipment, land taxes, office, vehicles, etc) to their farming operations. The less efficient operation, on a cost of goods basis, still makes more money.
Now scale the operation up to 50,000 acres (that operation keeps $225,000 using example above) and you understand why the family farmer can't compete. He either has to get bigger or he gets bought out if he is grain farming. Don't blame the farmers. They do what they have to do to survive but the market is against low volume/highly efficient operations. The big guys have to compete against each other for efficiency as well and ultimately the high volume/high efficiency guys last year after year. And get bigger.
One possibility is to get the methane from alternative sources: landfills, waste water treatment plants, bioreactors using manure of sewage.
Since the methane is used as a sorce of hydrogen in the Haber process the other posssibility is to find an alternate source of hydrogen. This could be done by electrolysis using electricity from renewable enerergy such as solar or wind, using high temperatures in a pebble bed nuclear reactor to thermally dissociate water into hydrogen and oxygen, or by drawing of some of the hydrogen from the synthesis gas produced in Syntech's biomass to ethanol process.
Crop production need not be as dependent on fossil fuels as the doomers claim it is.
Lets forget about cars.
Consider this can we come up with a viable source of organic fuel for two use cases.
1.) Air travel
2.) Chemical feedstocks
I think the country should focus on solving these problems first in particular the air travel problem. If we can get the airline industry moved over to renewables that would be a big accomplishment and its a much easier problem to tackle then trying to solve the problem of personal transportation.
So whats the best way to make jet fuel and we would wan't to include cellulose in the mix. Its my understanding that the Russian ran there planes off ethanol.
And I found this.
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/33519/story.htm
So we have a industry for which there is no substitue in the near future for organic fuel Fuel is a huge part of there expensis if we can't create a viable renewable solution for the airline industry then forget about any other problem.
Finally I suspect we can but it will be obvious that its not possible to extend to general ground transport in a big way.
Has anyone caculated how much land would be needed to meet the needs of the airline industry ?
Billionaires have a habit of saying things that are ridiculous just as often as regular people. Only that their BS is taken seriously. Where is the large scale price-competitive cellulosic ethanol plant?
I bet that in 10 years, Virgin Atlantic's fleet will be operating on exactly 100% petroleum hydrocarbon.
Aircraft are even tougher customers than cars for energy density. Ethanol just has sufficiently less and you have to carry all that oxygen up and down whereas with Jet A (kerosene) you get it free from the air. Really, there is nothing better for air propulsion than today's jet fuel available in the periodic table.
I suspect biodiesel is a better approach no oxygen.
Or vegetable oil in general for jet fuel.
My point is its a much more conrolled market your dealing with a fairly small number of big companies and you need to deliver to a small number of places.
I don't agree that the current jet fuel is the best.
We need to explore the properties of alternatives. A vegtable
based fuel would not have sulfur for example refining may be cheaper etc etc.
And you just highlighted my point the airline industry in not a perfect model to convert but in my opinion the fact that distribution is much easier to control and the number of customers is small makes it the best one to go after.
In exchange for converting the airline industry gets fairly fixed prices for there fuel so there costs quite climbing.
It would make the industry sustainable.
With there main cost item fixed they can now consider investing in newer more fuel efficient planes say made of
carbon fiber etc.
If we can't develop a plan for the airline industry to kick the oil habit what chance do we have with the much larger
autoindustry ?
http://www.usda.gov/oce/EthanolSugarFeasibilityReport3.pdf
[Warning 78 page PDF]
There is some good information in the report, but it is very definitely skewed to make corn ethanol appear to be much cheaper to produce than sugar ethanol (In the USA by more than 3:1 - However they show that in Brazil sugar ethanol is less than USA corn ethanol?)
The major factor is that USA sugar prices are kept artificially high by more than 2:1 over world sugar prices.
Lets see, - You have to allow us to sell our subsidized corn and soybeans into your country but no you can't sell your sugar into our country.
I could go into a long diatribe on this report and agricultural subsidys, but I'll spare you the agony and let you read the report and come to your own conclusions.
one million liters per year = 16.9 barrels per day
is the capacity of the pilot plant...
Do any of these scientists have a garden or have ever raised a field of corn?
What about entropy and the laws of physics ?
More energy will be used up grinding the stuff then will be realized ... to say nothing of feeding the people envolved
Ancient sunlight stored in fosil fuels has allowed all this abundence daily sunlight is the only sustainable alternative.
Cellulose liquid fuel for your jet aircraft ...
Get over it
One possible interpretation of this hadlong attempt to go to ethanol is an attempt not to be too inconvenienced by the changes that are coming and must come.
This is not, as many of us around here figured out long ago, The Jetsons.
It is odd how cellulosic ethanol has rapidly morphed from being a concept still in the R&D stage to something that many people automatically assume is a viable and readily implimentable technology. I'm not sure if this is just innocent wishful thinking or deliberate outright deception.
Of course, we have the question of whether it can be made into a cost-effective, high-EROEI route to ethanol with more R&D.
The optimist will say that the development of many of today's technologies was fraught with difficulties and that we wouldn't have many of the thing we now have if people had given up trying. The pessimist, on the other hand, will say that if it can't be made to work after 30+ years of R&D, it's not likely to ever work. I myself am more inclined to take the pessimistic view, as there ARE such things as technological deadends, and the sooner these are recognized as such, the better our limited developmental resources can be allocated.
ARGH!!
We are much closer to getting sufficiently good batteries for a reasonable plug-in hybrid than getting large scale cellulosic ethanol or even biodiesel (which appears to be better energetically), disregarding potential agricultural capacity.
And if somebody signs a check today we can get a large nuclear plant operational in 5 years which probably will produce more useful work than the next 25 years of cellulosic ethanol capacity of the planet.
Today, we already have EXCESS electricity production at night.
Because of the technical characteristics of coal and nuclear plants, it is not easy to rapidly change their output down and up, so that in many locations they are burning coal and uranium and turning into heat which does absolutely zero work because electricity demand is too low. It literally is wasted. Some places do have load-balancing pumped storage of course.
But the point is that PHEVs could start making a difference now without delusionary unobtanium.
I'm all for building more new nuclear power plants ASAP.
But it is totally unrealistic to expect one to be up and running in 5 years from the time the decision to build is made. Hell, in the US you'd be lucky if you made it through the permitting process and obstructionist lawsuits in 5 years - even for just an addition to an existing nuke. From what I've seen of the visceral opposition to nukes, it is my opinion that under the current climate it will be virtually impossible to get a new nuke built anywhere in the Northeast. However, chronic power outages could change the general attitude in a big hurry.
By the way, large coal and nuclear power plants CAN change their output to match the difference in daytime and nightime loads without extreme difficulty. It may not be as easy as taking your foot off the accelerator in your car, but it is not as difficult as you imply. It is of course preferable to keep as much of the generating capacity on the grid as constant as possible and to pick of the fluctuations with as small a number of plants as possible.
People could move their demand to night hours, but there is as yet no incentive... they are charged the same at peak demand time as at midnight. This could change fast, and should.
I see gw hitting much earlier and harder than po, which might be a slow squeeze for years. Someday soon there will be a push from all coastal states/nations to replace coal plants with nukes asap. Already gulf coast states are losing population, tax base, coast towns, etc...
Even germany may change its tune when sea levels rise.
The biologists and their enzymes may yet have something to show us. Or the chemists and their syngas catalysts.
And just in case they don't, their efforts to cultivate large amounts of sustainable biomass will be a boon to those who simply want to burn it for heat and electricity.
Personally, when it's one pilot plant I'd worry that burn rate in venture capital is as high as the burn rate of energy-in.
I don't think every bet will pay off, but I hope enough of them will.
People who want us to lock in now to hydrogen, or cellulosic ethanol, or solar roofs, are asking for a commitment to premature infrastructure.
We do not say that one cannot make alcohol from plant cellulose, or that Iogen is not making "some" ethanol. For example the Russian lignocellulose to ethanol experience is also noted. This situation is simply one where, after 3 decades, and hundreds of promises and projects, nothing is happening that is verifiably promising in terms of cost and by practical definitions of EROEI . Maybe ethanol from lignocellulose will happen but that is what was being said 30 years ago. The fact is that a practical process for ethanol from lignocellulose is yet to be demonstrated. We last did a serious study for a very large waste corporation 1 1/2 years ago and nothing looked encouraging.
TheLastSasquatch (Nate) asked me for a zinger question for a Washington DC panel in May 2006, and this is what I sent him:
"---Where can one find a validated flow diagram with actual operational or even laboratory data on concentrated acid hydrolysis, dilute acid hydrolysis, or even laboratory data verifying the optimistic expectations for ethanol from lignocellulose? There is lots of BS out there but no real information and the failures are "swept under the rug". Verifiable process yields and verifiable process energy balances are extremely important but entirely missing."
I received no answer. The absence of evidence supporting a practical process must be considered in combination with the many good reasons why ethanol from lignocellulose has run into roadblocks. The technical roadblocks and questions are multiple in chemical and biochemical engineering terms. Many are easily identifiable. The technical reasons for roadblocks have not gotten much airing on the Oil Drum. To list them all would require a treatise (although Remic pointed out just one of many -- we could call it "invasion of the pentose snatchers"). I can send you a paper giving some of the reasons. As to full coverage of the reasons for failure of ethanol from lignocellulose to materialize, they are undestandable, but it would take an extended review paper to cover and explain them all. I have explained above why genetic engineering has fallen short of initial hopes. But I can discuss the reasons with you or anyone interested. My phone number is 650-856-2850.
Don Augenstein aka Pomona96 on the oil drum
I'm curious as to how you could have possibly missed all of the postings by me (or 'Syntec' to be precise) made in defence of Mr. Khosla's proposed ethanol trajectory and how it relates to Syntec Biofuel's cellulosic ethanol production path?
Allow me to recap...
At Sytnec, our scientists have focused on a BTL/GTL process that capitalizes on the thermo-chemical conversion of syngas -derived from any carbonaceous material- to ethanol/methanol and higher order alcohols such as butanol.
The beauty of the Syntec process is that it has been specifically designed to operate in a low-pressure, low-temperature environment (similar to methanol production) using a true ethanol catalyst - not a modified FT variant.
The by-product of the Syntec process (BTL) is char and it turns out that char might be one of the best soil conditioners we could ever utilize in a process called Terra Preta. I have opened discussions with Cornell Univ. to investigate further potential of Terra Preta as it relates to our work.
As one might imagine, the prospect of making large amounts of ethanol efficiently from renewable waste resources has attracted expressions of interest from many industry, government and environmental groups from all over the world but as I've expressed here and elsewhere, ethanol usage/production is a huge learning curve for the general public.
Hence, if you could please do me one small favor and make sure to point out that enzymatic fermentation is but one of the many ways to make cellulosic ethanol, it would make my job just that much easier.
I look forward to your presentation at the IEA Bioenergy conference here in Vancouver.
But I can discuss the reasons with you or anyone interested. My phone number is 650-856-2850.
Will you do it?
I understand the enzymatic path and know the players i.e. Iogen, Abengoa, Cellunol (VK's group) but that's about it.
I'll be attending the IEA conference at month's end and will hopefully have the time to drop-in for the presentation.
Char as in charcoal? If so, have you seen E-P's posts on DCFCs? (direct carbon fuel cells)? Seems like we could get both liquid and solid fuels at the same time!
Lets say we have a cogen fermentation/gasification plant operating in Nebraska. The corn goes to the fermentation side while the stover goes to the gasifier. The char/ash from gasification goes back to the fields for charring (Terra Preta).
Year 2 rolls around and the same process is followed but this time after charring, the fields are planted with switchgrass.
In year 3 the switchgrass is harvested for the gasifier and the char goes to a DCFC unit. Corn is planted. The harvest goes to fermentation, the stover is gasified and the char either goes back to the field or to the DCFC unit.
This scenario is completely off the cuff - back of the napkin if you will.
Constructive criticism most appreciated.
"The most important question is: what is a better way to use our billion plus ton per year potential biomass resource (and I stress potential, also not real, maybe one or two hundred million tons are real"
You just can't handwave 1.1 Billon tons out of the equation.
The DOE/USDA 'Billion Ton Vision' sits on my desk, I talk with the guys who produce this waste on a daily basis and have been in the field/forest to see it first hand.
I guess I am not the only one unconvinced by this rather shallow analysis and would appreciate hearing the other side of the story. Specifically how small can you make the plants ... Xethanol seem to think they can cut biomass transport costs by building lots of small plants near the biomass sources. What do you think?
BTW thanks for working on this problem. Every time I see people sit down and put actual hours into solving peak oil it makes me feel better :) (i will soon be joining this quest)
Both Xethanol and Iogen are focused on producing ethanol via enzymatic fermentation of cellulose from renewable waste resources.
Iogen makes their own enzymes and apply it to wheat/barley straws in a pre-fermentation process. At last word, Iogen had sourced their first commercial operation for startup in Idaho sometime in 2007 at a cost of US$300 Million.
Xethanol research on the other hand, seems to be focused on genetically modified yeast variants that work in the fermentation stage proper. They would still use enzymes however (either made in-house or oddly enough, purchased from Iogen) as a pre-treatment of the feedstock.
Now one of the problems with woodwaste insofar as enzymatic fermentation is concerned, is lignin - it's the filler of plant cells, 1/3 weight of dry tonnage and a bitch to break down but it remains a by-product nonetheless. This is why Xethanol has purchased gasifying rights to convert lignin into an alt source of Nat Gas for existing ops. In other words, they are looking to cogen their enzymatic fermentation plants.
So how does this differ from Syntec's process?
Well, we basically skip the pre-treatment phase, do not use enzymes and do not ferment anything.
There's 2 production paths we can follow (BTL & GTL) depending on the feedstock source and can utilize virtually any carbonaceous feedstock available - even tires.
Good luck on your quest. Trying to do something about Peak as opposed to sitting on one's hands is very gratifying work indeed.
The scale of the problem though... that's the kicker.
It seems that most of these highly charged negative comments come from those who have a competing interest to protect.
Aren't' "all bets off," if some of the DNA techniques work? I'm not saying that they will, but they seem to be so sure that they won't, which is in direct opposition to some of America smartest (and richest) people.
What are there current projects and specifically who signs there paycheck????
* Sorry if I missed this specific information.