Friday Open Thread
Posted by Admin on May 12, 2006 - 10:45pm
Thread away.
[editor's note, by Yankee] You know it can't be good when you find out about something because of a blog post entitled "I could feel Yankee's head exploding as I watched it". Tonight, 20/20 had a "special" called "Myths, Lies and Downright Stupidity" (brought to us by that paragon of journalistic integrity, John Stossel). Myth #10 is "Are we really running out of oil or are we just lazy in our gathering methods?". If you have it in you, you can watch the webcast.
I was hanging out at the Barefoot Coffee Roastery or some damn name, in San Jose (which means probably Santa Clara) and it's next to a Bed Bath & Beyond, (f*ck yeah!) and the impatient SUV mommas going in and out and having near-misses with each other made for a pretty hilarious show.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7003538016
a "bicycle". I'm gonna get around to trademarking that name
someday. And unlike that 8,000 mpg hat-box, the bicycle will
travel uphill as well.
I'd love to see the 8,000 mpg vehicle survive a snowy winter
and a blazing hot summer. No AC or heat, cramped up in a tiny
box. Good luck.
We need a new mindset, not an unpleasant little box in which to
squeeze our bodies. Take that cage and shove it.
We shouldn't have to license a canoe. (at least in my state)
You get the picture.
any exhaust controls spewing tons of blue/black smoke into
the atmosphere. I like controls on what motorized vehicles
can be driven on a road.
I have to agree though that a human powered vehicle, such
as a canoe, should not require a license.
Yeah, I don't see a paradox - more like short-sighted planning that ended up being penny-wise and pound foolish.
And one can only hope that 'rural' land becomes far cheaper.
Like $500 and acre VS $7000 an acre for the same land.
(These explosions seem to be occurring a little more frequently than I'd like to admit of late...snicker)
it was a video on bicycle commuting, companies offering bicycle commuting rewards ($100/month, that buys a nice bike), and cities getting on board.
it think it's a win that this was on cable news, and even more that they thought it was a high-value teaser.
The housing/auto/finance industries want to keep selling and financing large homes and autos.
The MSM wants to keep selling advertising for large homes/autos/loans.
(Some) major oil companies, major exporters and energy analysts provide the intellectual ammunition--in support of the concept of infinite growth against a finite resource base.
BTW, did you notice that whenever the cornucopians talk about the tar sands, they talk about reserves, and not production rates. It's a good bet that there will be a lot of MSM references to the Stossel segment.
So, who do Americans prefer to listen to--Peter Huber, who says go ahead and buy the SUV and large home and continue with your commute, or people that tell Americans to cut back, live below their means, and live very simply?
Instead of covering the speech, the Dallas Morning News the next morning had excerpts of an interview the former chief economist for ExxonMobil, who professed "amazement" that oil prices were still so high. She opined that it was just a matter of time until oil prices fell sharply.
On some level, one actually has to have some sympathy for Americans' outrage over gasoline prices. If we have infinite oil reserves, then high gasoline prices must be the result of a conspiracy.
I don't see much of a difference between most of the MSM (regarding Peak Oil) and Enron executives (regarding their business plan). In both cases, their business model is and was dependent on deceiving the American people regarding the truth.
May 3, 2006
Energy tycoon Pickens says to expect $4 a gallon soon
Don Mecoy
The Daily Oklahoman
May 3--Boone Pickens, who has made millions predicting energy prices, said American consumers shouldn't expect to see cheaper gasoline anytime soon, and shortly could be paying quite a bit more.
"We're going to see $4 gasoline this summer," Pickens said. And motorists likely never will pay less than $2 for a gallon of gasoline, the Texas energy investor said.
Pickens, an Oklahoma native who founded Mesa Petroleum in 1956 and now runs energy investment funds, appeared at a luncheon Tuesday before business leaders to discuss the energy industry's support of fine arts.
Strife in several oil-producing nations could constrict supplies and send prices soaring, Pickens said. Meanwhile, there is little that could boost supplies and cut prices, he said.
"The Mexican President Vicente Fox said that the populism in Latin America is "one of the big obstacles to growth and development", offering people "false" hopes of escaping poverty.
"And the European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said that "we are a Europe against populist tendencies."
"Behind the scenes diplomats were working to try to defuse the crisis over energy in Latin Amercia, where European firms including British Gas, British Petroleum and Spain's Repsol have massive investments.
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article364641.ece
How do y'all see this playing out? I can't see the G7 letting this stand, tho' I'm not against it personally..
(The "8th G" would be Russia, right?)
The third world dictatorship (any one of the last three hundred or so) sells a national resource or bond issue to a European fence, usually a bank.
Step 2
The third world dictatorship steals the money and deposits it in a European bank. At first British, then Swiss or Luxemburg or Liechtenstein, now a colony like the Cayman Islands.
Step 3
A new government takes over and nationalises the resource or defaults on the bonds, and the US makes getting more "foreign aid" or "military assistance" contingent on repayment of the bonds or privitisation of the resource, or attacks the third world country.
But now the US is broke and out of troops. Bolivia is not going to repay the bond issue and is going to nationalise the resource. It won't be the last third world country to do this.
Bah. This from a leader who has escaped exactly the same populist movements by virtue of being able to allow 10-12 million workers to head north into the US. Remittances from workers in the US to Mexico now exceed the revenue that Mexico recieves for its oil exports to the US.
oy vey! comment on this stuff?....well i did find some stuff on ethanol-corn, if we haven't beaten this topic to death.. in business week online is an article on ethanol production boosting corn prices in th u.s., in which i found this tidbit
....o.k. that's interesting...but how much does that 2.15 billion bushels represent?..so i found this info on the daily futures.com website:
....so, we're using ~20% of the corn crop already to produce ethanol, and we're growing usage at 34% a year. and of course we're only using the most marginal land to do it,not!... now that's scarier than john stossel.
In my Macroeconomics class senior year of high school, the teacher played a recorded special episode of 20/20 by Stossel along the lines of Greed is Good (I would like to mention, btw, that this teacher, who'd spoke of his support of IP, broke several IP laws by doing this.) Stossel rants on and on about how greed drives the economy towards innovation, growth, etc, which is for the most part true, but he fell completely to the "growth is eternal" mindset and forgot the endgame, which is unlimited competition for the Earth's very limited resources. In forgetting this, he completely ignored the Tragedy of the Commons, which is for me basis of my resistance to pursuing greed as a good human virtue. I'm also willing to admit, however, that in very heated competition, I'd want to secure the most resources as I could for myself and my family.
Anyway, yea.. Stossel is very agitating.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Insurance/story?id=94181
Via
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF8&q=John+Stossel+flood+insurance
you get
http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/articles_2004/millionaire_welfare_queen_stossel.html
"Editor's note: John Stossel? The corporate PR flak masquerading as a journalist?! That was my first reaction when a reader sent us this article as a suggested "editor's pick." After reading it, we've got to credit Stossel for openly admitting his participation in one of our country's lesser-known tax scams."
It has been widely noted that the energy return on corn is negative while that of sugar cane is positive unfortunalty the climate of the United States is not e to the growth of sugar cane a solution is to burn the large amounts of coal reserves until the climate becomes semi-tropical in most of the US thus allowing the growth of sugar cane within the us.
And alternative would be to tie the US deeply to our South American neigbhors notatable brazil to create a huge self sufficient economy.
Unifiying Brazil and the US makes for a increadibly dynamic and intresting 21'th century country.
Win-Win!
Here in NZ, Channel Three ran a poll of 1000 people. 45% said they planned to change their driving habits because of high petrol prices. The story was framed by a couple who gave up their car and took the bus or walked or rode everywhere. A number of statistics were brandished, some of them quite encouraging. Looks like the people are starting to get it.
BUT...
The government, which funds roading (road building, expansion, and maintenance) from petrol taxes, is planning to shift funds from the current budget to cover the shortfall in roading projects because of decreased driving.
So, no matter whether people use the roads, the government will continue to fund them.
RR
If TSHTF how possible will it be to maintain the internet, and for how long?
The internet seems to me to be one of the greatest achievements of this era and allows me to learn about peak oil here in Japan and is an amazing resource for learning about sustainability, composting, organic farming, natural medicine and pretty much everything else. The internet seems to me like something that would become even more valuable as we face some sort of power down.
Unfortunately the Internet relies on huge telcos for it's existence and a massive infrastructure, not to mention large amounts of electricity. On a local scale we can do a lot to mitigate the likely consequences of peak oil - another poster mentioned ELP, Economise, localise, produce. But can anything be done to maintain our connections to the outside World or will we be thrust back to the dark ages and ignorance of the what goes on outside of our local areas?
The WWWeb will shortly be transformed whereby blogs like TOD will be sooo slooow to download that most of us will give up in frustration. See these links:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/051106I.shtml
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.internet09may09,0,4559120.story
Additionally, rising energy prices will eventually make websurfing unaffordable for most of us--the essentials of life will cost so much that we will not have the decretionary funds to spend computering.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Of course, they might slap a tax on bandwidth that would be arranged so that your megabit per second movie has it's price doubled, but your kilobit per second blog has it's price increased one thousand fold. They can use this new rate schedule as a cover for another tax increase.
With this government, what do you think is going to happen?
And the producers of popular text sites ARE going to get hit in the pocketbook.
My only foray into Solar so far has been to keep my office running if the power went out. (not as likely from Politics as from weather, but as the Prez says, 'Everything is staying on the table') I'm looking to other alternates for cooking and refrigeration, but electricity is invaluable for communications, control and lighting functions.
Major problem with this is that content producers like myself (6,000-8,000/visits a day at LATOC) are totally dumbasses when it comes to this fancy-smancy stuff you proposed.
This is why I joke about having my handy sandwich board ready. It may come down to that.
I'm also working on learning how to beat drums. That's how our ancestors communicated across distance.
"Boom-shakka-lakka-shakka-lakka-shakka-boom"
Best,
Matt
But wait...then there's the dreaded bird flu...hmmmm...I wonder if I could train hamsters to carry messages for me.
Thing that's so great about data communications, is that you can send and massively duplicate not only the messages, but the programs that let a PC do such a broad array of tasks as finding new ways of sending that message. You don't have to invent this software any more than you have to write an MP3 plug-in for your toaster.. Somebody out there is already beta-testing v.2.1.1, and if it's meeting a need, then it is spreading like, well, bird-flu out there, and somebody in your circle will get it to you, just so you'll explain Malthus to him again. It's like Whitney's Cotton gin (with those interchangable parts) on Speed, which is why I'm pretty sure we will find a way not to let this technology go.
I'm not thinking that Tech will 'come to our rescue'.. but it's a very powerful set of tools, and the developments that communicate over this medium also have the advantages of 'Accelerated, Unnatural Selection', if you will, where ideas can move quickly through a lot of people, getting tested, modified and either improved or eliminated as people see their usefulness. There's lots of feedback, and yes, lots of hash and bull as well, but I think it gives us a chance to get ideas that are succeeding out there where others can try them and build on them..
As far as Dogs go, well, I'm talking to you all on the internet, right? For all I know, you ARE all dogs..
The most interesting question beneath this is, can we gracefully degrade the technology to adapt to a changing market place, or are they racheting type mechanisms in play, so we can't go back the way we came. In which case, what possibilities to adapt might there be?
Electric Cars seem to be much easier to maintain than Internal Combustion vehicles, which is viewed as part of their early 'retirement' in the Auto Industry's fleet (Newest issue of HomePower makes this claim, haven't seen 'Who Killed the electric car?' yet.)
The discussion on "Moore's Law" mentioned the advantage that the lower-power CPU's had over the 'racecars', with the limitations of cooling. I think this will be a lynchpin in computer longevity, that of starting to 'underclock' our CPU's so that they don't burn out as fast. (Not that I've ever seen one of mine fry,but we're talking long-term life of a computer..) This downgrading might be illegal in the court of Moore. Fortunately, I never studied Law.
HardDrives are often the only constantly moving essential part in a computer (save the Keys, Fans and Mouse), but we have solid state memory that can serve growing purposes in this regard. Again, like with Solar and Wind, the proposal is not offered to replace the full capacity we now enjoy. This is looking towards operating within a curtailed expectation of volume, througput, what-have-you- compared to our current feasting.
Personally, I own an old Palmtop from HP (200LX) that is essentially an 8088 IBM-clone in a checkbook-sized case which has served me steadily now for 10-1/2 years without so much as a reboot, much less an Operating System upgrade or reinstall. It runs on two AA batts, which I recharge every 2 weeks or so. It is up and running instantly on flash memory, and can run Lotus, Quicken, most DOS pgms you want to install, and talks via a PC card or Infrared or wired serial connection. It's dead simple, but can talk through a modem (text only, but that's all I'm doing right now..), backup all data to an external flash card, and seems extremely hardy.
I don't think it's impossible.. and I don't think we'll see the end of chip manufacturing, either. It, like all things, will just have to change with the times.
Bob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidonet
the modern wireless version (conceived but not built?) is a mesh radio network covering broad area:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network
One curious thing: the semiconductor business is governed by Moore's Law, which is really quite similar to Hubbert's Law. Except Moore's is a straight exponential, with no consideration about limits. Just like people have predicted that petroleum will run out but it never actually seems to, or that food will, similarly people are always predicting that we'll hit the limit to Moore's Law, but we never seem to. Chips today are still getting smaller and faster.
Need I add, the fact that petroleum production and food production have continued to expand for decades or centuries doesn't imply they'll continue to do so for the next few decades or centuries, and there's no such implication for chips either.
The wild thing is that Moore's Law may be hitting the wall right about the same time as petroleum. Strange coincidence. One good symptom of this is all the multi-core chips coming out. A single processor twice as fast is unquestionably preferable to two processors. But if you can't figure out how to make the fast processor, you do what you can.
The whole Moore's Law business is quite a remarkable phenomenon. It's a feedback loop of course. The basic elements are manufacturing R&D investment, and consumer demand. It's quite something to look at the price of a cutting edge chip factory, how that has increased over the years. I don't know the exact numbers, but it costs something like a billion (10**9) dollars to build a factory. The whole game with chips is volume. Designing chips is also very expensive. The first chip off the line costs like ten million dollars maybe, and the next hundred thousand chips cost like fifty dollars each. So the whole game is to sell lots & lots, to amortize the cost of the factory and the designing of the chip.
These kinds of feedback loops can run both ways, of course. If volume goes down, then price has to go up to cover the investments. OUCH! That is not a stable equilibrium! If consumers stop buying so many cell phones and iPods and HDTVs and automobiles (amazing amount of electronics in an automobile) etc. etc. - not impossible to imagine a kind of bubble bursting collapse.
The dot com bust actually had a bit of this character. Some of it might just have been all the investment in Y2K precautions... then nobody needed a new machine for a few years. Semiconductors have long been a cyclic industry - driven a lot by successive waves of new technology - but the 2001-2003 period was a whole new size of pothole to fall into.
It's a curious puzzle for sure, how all this might play out.
JimK
Excellent! I am soooo glad you opened up this topic, because it relates DIRECTLY to the energy situation, and even more so to alternatives.
First, Moore's Law was around long before Moore! He simply systemized and named it, but it is the exact phenomenon that got us the fossil fuel era in the first place.
To read the history of the birth of the electric motor, or of the early days of the automobile is a poetic expression of this (by the way, does ANYBODY read or study the history of technology these days? It is a poetic story, surprising and beautiful...it ranks right up there with the liberal arts as a mind expanding study, try it!)
Take electric motors. In the old days of industry (the birthing period 1830-1875), textile mills were the idealized version of modernism. They had moved quickly from water wheel power (some are still museums on our own East coast), to steam. But how to distribute the power? In the first years, it was done by "line shaft", with the steam engine driving a driveline that ran down the ceiling of the work area. pulleys and belts were used to transmit the power from the main line shaft to the individual machines used to do the work. This was dangerous, as people could (and did) get tangled into the belts and pully arrangement, and dismembered or killed. It was also high maintenence, as the belts had to be constantly maintained and or replaced to make sure they were tight and not going "slack" (our name "slackers" has an industrial basis).
Then the revolution. Based on the work of such people as Clark Maxwell, Michael Faraday and Joseph Henry, it became obvious that electric motors and generators would work (circa 1831) But it would be the better part of 60 more years before they became a large contributor to industry. A young Albert Einstein's father, Hermann, ran an electrical technology business, giving Albert an early introduction to the power of science. What he did was sold electric motors in the late 1800's. But it was a hard sell, and Hermann Einstein was always on the edge of bankruptcy. Most industrialists said of their tried and true steam plant and line shaft that you only needed one steam engine, one engine to care for and fuel. What the electric industry was asking was that a plant buy a motor for each machine!! It was sheer lunacy to think that such a scheme would work! And not only that, the plant would have to convert the machanical power of steam to electricity through this strange contraption, a "generator" to power the machines, and then convert it BACK to mechanical power! The loses in such conversions must use up the power put into the machines, it could never work, it made no thermodynamic sense! Electric motors were still expensive, new fangled and untried. Why risk anything on technology like that? Never mind the complexity of switches, controllers, ballests, transformers...what a hair brained scheme! And the "electrons" could not even be seen! How could you know if it was working right? Albert Einstein himself, upon toying with his fathers parts and magnets was overcome by the magic of what he called "action at a distance", the forces of magnetism and electronic forces....it would lead him on one of the greatest quests in history.
The rest as they say is history. A fun game is to count the number of electric motors on your property right now....fan motors, refridgerator, washng machine, and even tiny ones in electric shavers, VCR's, electric toothbrushes, disc drives in computers, DVD's and CD's...but wait, don't leave out your car.....power window motors, starter motors, electric antenna, alternator (from Nikola Tesla's GREAT breakthrough, alternating current), electric seat motors, more heater fans, windshield wipers, CD player...a modern car can have more than a dozen electric motors on one vehicle!
Michael Faraday and Joseph Henry could not have imagined that their motors, once considered complex, expensive, and almost magical, would one day be so common that mankind has left them on the moon and on Mars!
It would be as much science fiction to them as "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" is to us. Just think of the scales achieved...there are electric motors that are two or three stories tall....and now through nano technology, some as small as the head of a pin, that can be swallowed by a human as easily as an aspirin.
How is this possible? Moore's law.
And make no mistake, Moore's law is coming to electic solar cells, to high density batteries, to fuel cells and windmills. They could someday be built in the hundreds of millions (there are certainly more electric motors in the U.S. that there are people) and ranging in size from that of an insect to bigger than Hoover dam. Imagine a factory building hundreds of thousands of tiny windmills that will fasten to the top of telephone and electric poles so cheaply that they are a marginal cost, but keep current in the wire whether or not current is coming from the base generating plant....solar cells buried in translucent paint on cars, or worn in jackets to provide communication and information power....a fuel cell under the floor of a motorhome that silently keeps it air conditioned and electrified....batteries so powerful, small and cheap that they can power a plug hybrid car, with the only fossil fuel onboard being a small cartridge about the size of text book that you plug in and exchange to refuel, filled with hydrogen, propane, on natural gas, butane, or (??) and you don't have to change it more than six to twelve times a year...about as often as you know pay a shop to change your oil!
Technically, it can be done. The question is, do we want to see it done?
The modern age is far from over. Unless, we want to see it over.
Roger Conner known to you as ThatsItImout
As long as the system where dollars (or yen or whatever fiat currency) is used as a marker, then yes.
But such a system is flawed. How can electrical power from a wind turbine, photovoltatic cells, coal, oil gass hydro and nuclear all cost the same? Where is the 'pricing' of depletion of the resource? Or for the waste product?
Using a different marker system like gold, labor or even energy have been suggested.
You ask if anyone reads or studies the history of technology these days. Well, I do. And in fact I consider myself to be somewhat of an amateur scholar on certain aspects of the subject.
By the way, if you don't already, you might want to subscribe to 'Invention & Technology', a quarterly publication put out by American Heritage.
Regarding advances in technology, yes, many of the things we take for granted today were once considered impossible or unfeasible.
However, there is also a flip-side to that. Many of the speculations about the 'World of Tomorrow' that were made during those mythical 1950s now appear quaint and or even outright ludicrous. For example, there was an article in either Popular Science or Mechanix Illustrated during the early 1950s that predicted by the year 2000 we'd all be commuting to work in our own atomic-powered personal aircraft. Well, the concept of an atomic plane didn't get very far, did it (even though the Pentagon pissed away many millions trying to make one)?
One has to realize that that not everything that can be envisioned is possible. For a variety of reasons many things turn out to be technological dead ends, never to advance any further. It's not alway easy to predict which things will be winners and which will be losers, but it's important to recognize that there are far more technological losers than winners. The trick is telling the difference ahead of time.
Oil on the other hand is being limited by geology and no "breakthroughs" are likely there.
The other factor to consider is that speeds don't peak, they plateau .... assuming no breakthroughs top speeds for Intel-class chips are still likely to be around the 3.5/4ghz mark, not lower.
First, in the chip industry, transistor sizes are shrinking --meaning less silicon being consumed per transistor and also less metal for interconnecting the more closely squeezed together transistors, plus faster switching speed due to decreased channel lengths (OK, you're flushing us Silicon Valley nerds out into the spotlight with this comment line).
By contrast, we are not getting the same improvement rates out of oil --i.e., number of MPG are not doubling every 2 years, and length of roadway covered by people is not shrinking by exponential rates. Also, advances in photolithography are not applicable to oil. We are talking apples and orangutangs when trying to compare semiconductors to petroleum. Nice try, but not at all the same thing.
(Right click and View Image for bigger)
AMD is handling this better than Intel because they have a 64-bit processor and they have historically run much lower clock speeds. I have an Athlon-64 3200+ which runs at 2.0 Ghz and consumes 13 Watts at idle. In comparison some of the 3.0+ GHz Pentiums, which actually have less processing power, consume 80+ Watts. Intel may just turn their more efficient laptop processor into a desktop (if they haven't already).
Rather than try to increase processor speed any further both companies have stopped and are starting to add more arithmetic and logic units to their machines, to give them more parallel processing capacity.
Just as robbmcleod stated, for several years now Moore's Law, at least in terms of the personal computer, has been nullified. Attempts to improve CPU chip architecture have largely stalled, and instead most gains have come from simply ramping up processor clock speed. Waste heat dissipation is becoming the major stumbling block to this approach, needless to say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4767579.stm
Since the first Hummer H1 lurched off the production line, 12,000 have been sold but sales were down 16% last year.
Peter Huber looks like an acne-scarred adolescent who has his own inner rage problems.
How's that for 5-cent philosophizing? I've now essentially stooped down to their level.
One of the stars of AAR is Thom Hartmann, who wrote a great book called "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight".
But, isn't John Stossel on there too?
http://www.ringoffireradio.com/show.asp?jid=2
From the sound of it, Stossel's on there once in a while, and gets his azz beat when he is lol.
I expect things to start to get strange very quickly
Eesh.
Yep, maybe things are really getting that bad...
Evidently a lot more people in Vermont are beginning to think current trends are pointing the wrong way:
http://www.vermontguardian.com/commentary/052006/Secession.shtml
-----------
The 2006 Vermonter Poll recently conducted by the Center for Rural Studies at the University of Vermont indicates that the percentage of eligible Vermont voters who favor secession from the United States could very well be the highest in the nation.
Two and a half more years of so-called war on terrorism, a foreign policy based on full spectrum dominance, the suppression of civil liberties, and a culture of deceit combined with skyrocketing gasoline prices and a precipitous decline in the dollar could easily double the percentage of Vermont voters favoring secession. The election of either Hillary Clinton or Condoleezza Rice to the presidency in 2008 could send this percentage through the roof.
--------------
Could any TODers in the New England area post more info or opinions on the public's mood in your hometown?
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
What you describe is business during a time of energy surplus. A time when accelerometers (or whatever)are becoming more and and more abundant.
Once the surplus dries up and goes into decline, business tactics tend to change.
Best,
Matt
Well, since your terrified, we must as well scare you some more. First, the U.S. buys no Iraqi oil or gas (many people seem to think so), but they do manage to sell it, and it buys them friends....
"And Iran is now China's third-largest oil supplier."
China has invested nearly $100 billion in developing Iranian oil/gas fields. By some estimates, Iran will provide China with over 250 million tons of natural gas and 150,000 barrels of crude oil per day over the next 30 years.
" Russia has already built a $1 billion nuclear reactor for Iran at Bushehr, and Tehran has expressed interest in two to three more reactors. Actually, it's considering building more than 100 nuclear reactors in the years ahead. Russia unquestionably wants a cut of that fat action . . ."
" Iran and India, along with Pakistan, have agreed to build a $7 billion pipeline to move Iranian natural gas to India via Pakistan."
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed013006b.cfm
"Iran primarily exports oil to Japan, China, South Korea, Taiwan and Europe."
" Japan, Iran's biggest oil customer, has become the first country to reduce its imports of Iranian oil because of Tehran's nuclear dispute with the West. Nippon Oil, Japan's largest refiner, will cut its purchases of Iranian crude oil by 15% this year, Fumiaki Watari, Nippon's chairman, said last month."
_________________
So why do we (meaning the U.S.) care?
Qatar, 60 miles across the Persian Gulf from Iran
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/images/ibc_map_qatar_en.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Persian_Gulf_map.png
See the narrow Strait of Hormuz, through which two thirds of the worlds oil passes...look to the left and see the big peninsula sticking out into the Gulf, that's Qatar, home of the 3rd largest natural gas reserves in the world, only 800.000 citizens and the staunchest U.S. allies in the Middle East, and to the largest military machine ever assembled in one place, U.S. Central Command, the base of operations in Iraq.
Qatar LNG development
http://www.shell-me.com/english/apr06/news-me1.htm#menews1
It's your money...
Thursday, 15 December 2005
The Export-Import Bank of the United States (Ex-Im Bank) has approved today a loan guarantee of up to $403.5 million to support the export of U.S. equipment and services to Qatar Liquefied Gas Company 3 Ltd. (Qatargas 3) to build a natural gas liquefaction plant and related facilities in Qatar.
http://www.usrom.com/Countries/qatar.htm
And that is only the beginning. The investment in Qatar natural gas will be HUGE. It must be, for the U.S. to remain a world power. The commitment by President Bush to LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) and the potential for gas to liquids in the creation of synthetic Diesel and propane makes natural gas a strategic asset.
If the Iranians are going after the atomic bomb, or if the Americans believe that Iran is going after the atomic bomb (whether it is true or not, that won't matter, we will act as if it is true)...the question becomes:
Will America tolerate having CentCom (Central Command) and our only real quality and quantity supplier of LNG sitting under an Iranian nuclear gun?
I frankly feel that if you accept the above terms, that an attack on Iran is almost certain. The timing would probably be before the November off year elections, because given President Bush's political problems, I don't think he can risk losing the Republican majority in the Congress (which seems very possible if not outright likely) before going to war. There is one caveat:
It is possible that Bush would use the off year elections to measure his party's strenth. If the majority holds, he can see it as a "mandate" and then go after Iran, knowing that he would be gone before his party had to face another Congressional race. If he lost Congress, he would then simply try to sue for peace....or hope the Europeans could apply enough pressure...but given the earlier statements above, that would essentially marginalize American power in the Persian Gulf and come back to haunt us in an even bigger way later.
It is a very dangerous situation indeed.
Roger Conner known to you as ThatsItImout
CORRECTION: The U.S. buys no IRANIAN oil or gas...my error, late at night....
Roger Conner known to you as ThatsItImout
As educated Peakoilers, we should know that the risk/benefit of this belligerent strategy is getting higher every month.
(And please spare me justifications based on Ahmadinejad's Israel comments, since the U.S. started its vindictive policy when Khatami was president and was talking of 'dialogue among civilizations' and 'breaking walls of mistrust' only to be villified as 'just another mullah.)
IMO, there are no valid justifications, but I think war will happen anyway. I'm not so sure about nukes being used.
You are not the only one.
http://newswire.indymedia.org/en/2006/05/839133.shtml
sigh
Wait...then there is Geraldo.
Here
[Greyzone, feel free to send me an updated csv and I will update the underlying database]
Yesterday I read in the Louisville Courier Journal that Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels (yeah, right our of Bush's budget office to our statehouse thanks to Indiana citizens falling for Karl Rove's folksey campaign tactics) that Indiana is planning to build 20 ethanol plants in the next couple of years! Is this crazy?
Stossel seems to be carving a niche for himself as a low-brow version of Bjorn Lomborg [sp?]. Ugh.
Haha, good luck to them with that!
And when the obvious answer to this question is no, it give the sheeple a false sence of reality and doesn't address the issue of peak oil. I've seen the done repeatedly with the MSM and until they frame the question differently, most people won't hear about or understand the ramifications of peal oil..
And did anyone read that the corm growers association recently stated that they believe the US could make about 15B gallons of corn based ethanol without effecting the food supply?? My estimates put that about 40% of our corn crop.. Talk about waste..
There are lots of prospects like this, but not many people who know how to put them together. He is 89 years old and plans to drill 4 new wells and will probably recover at least another 100,000 barrels for a cash investment of about 2 million . That works out to a 200% total return on investment over the next 5 to 10 years. Most of the guys who knew how to do this kind of deal are over 70 or dead.
When King George the Elder traded cheap oil prices to the Saudies in exchange for support for their monarchy most independents were squeezed out of the oil patch including me. Now that prices are high I'm back in it but the younger domestic oil people don't know how to exploit the oil that is left in the ground so they do deep natural gas deals instead. It is nearly impossible to find rigs to drill the shallow deals where oil is likely to be found and darn hard to find engineers who know how to complete the wells. This is great for me personally-I'm 54-.but lousy for America. Laziness isn't the problem, but rather a shortage of trained personel to redevelop old oil fields.
It looks as though the gauntlet was thrown a couple days back: http://www.theoildrum.com/comments/2006/5/8/132749/1229/104#104
And I'm game... RR would you be kind enough to outline the topic of said challenge please?
In the interim, I thought you would like to know that I was shopping for SUVs in Brazil this week - you know, the SUVs that according to you, "No Hummers. No SUVs. No pickups. No large vehicles of any kind" - don't exist in Brazil (snicker).
I just can't decide between a Ford Explorer or a Land Rover...
https:/www.ford.com.br/Default.asp
https:/www.landrover.com.br/bws_index.asp#
The orange is nice don't you think?
And where's your trusty sidekick Fallout Boy?
He should note that my comments re: the benefits of US biodiesel production for Americans, were in reference to SOY not PALM. Nevertheless, make sure to thank him for the biology lesson.
Anyhoo...
For those of you in this thread who are worried about war in Iran, one must consider 2 basic underlying principles:
1 - Israel will NOT let Iran anywhere near a bomb.
2 - US will NOT let China anywhere near that oil.
Ethanol Debate Challenge
In the interim, I thought you would like to know that I was shopping for SUVs in Brazil this week - you know, the SUVs that according to you, "No Hummers. No SUVs. No pickups. No large vehicles of any kind" - don't exist in Brazil (snicker).
If misrepresentation is the best you can do, then prepare to have your head handed to you. I never said that the country didn't have any of these. I said that is what you saw on the roads every time they showed a clip. Continue your straw man arguments, though, if they make you feel good.
Good luck. You are going to need it. Be warned that arguments will have to be supported.
RR
Indicate in the comments section at the end of the debate challenge which topic you want to pursue. I offered several possible debate resolutions. Feel free to offer your own, or to suggest a modification of my suggested guidelines. As soon as we are in agreement, let's get going.
RR
This "boy" is a 35 year old man, a professional mechanical engineer, and former employee of USDA/ARS. Needless to say, I know both technological and agricultural bs when I smell it, and desperate panning for any biological feedstock to fuel ethanol-as-a-plug-and-play-replacement-for-petroleum arguements is just that, total bs. Pie in the sky pipe dreams.
First it was corn that was going to save us, then sugarcane, then switchgrass, then palm oil, and now soybeans. Puh-leese!
Go debate Robert, and get whatever you have to say off your chest, so we can move on to more "real" issues. Robert does not need my help, he more than has it covered, and I have better things to do with my day than trying to convince the unconvincible.
Peter Huber is obviously very uninformed and is just spinning words. Too bad the debate was one-sided and sounded more like a promo for his book. The problem is that they are debating the wrong question. Nobody is claiming that we are running out of oil. PO is when we reach a maximum extraction rate beyond which demand becomes constrain by supply. Tar sands will probably provides us with oil for 100 years as they are claiming but only a few mbpd.
The question is/are who and why?
What I find most interesting about the Stossel types is that they are industry schills who come to believe it.