Monday Open Thread: The GasBuddy Price Map Edition
Posted by Prof. Goose on April 25, 2006 - 12:05am
If you haven't seen the Gas Buddy Price Map yet, you probably should. Anyone want to combine it with the gasoline grade map (which I can't seem to find right now...) that has 43 different grades of gasoline for US consumption?
And, don't forget to check out this article which states:
DOHA, April 24 (Reuters) - OPEC ministers conceded on Monday there was nothing they could do to halt surging oil prices that threaten consumer nations' economies and could trigger a collapse in demand disastrous to producer states.
I am somewhat surprised this man knows so much about the oil infrastructure on the arabian peninsula. I wonder if the audience war laughing secretly at him. It probably just shows the naivety and the helplessnes our politicans are confronted with, when the oil prices is rising and nothing actually can be done.
Sorry, just a source in german language.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-04-24T072003Z_01_L247 50869_RTRUKOC_0_US-ENERGY-RUSSIA-EUROPE.xml
Russia should cut oil to Europe: Transneft
Excerpt:
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's planned oil pipeline to Asia will help cut deliveries to Europe, which is currently being oversupplied with Russian crude, the head of Russia's pipeline monopoly Transneft told a newspaper.
"We have overfed Europe with crude. And every single economic manual says that excessive supplies depress prices," Semyon Vainshtok told the daily Nezavisimaya Gazeta in an interview published on Monday.
"So far we cannot reduce supplies as all our exports are going to Europe. But as soon as we divert (flows) to China, South Korea, Australia, Japan it will immediately take away crude from our European colleagues," he added.
Vainshtok has repeatedly said that building a pipeline to Asia would help diversify Russian oil flows and cut discounts on the country's mainstay Urals crude blend in European markets.
His new comments are likely to come under much closer scrutiny after another Russian monopoly, state gas behemoth Gazprom, shocked Europe last week by saying it would supply gas elsewhere if its expansion in Europe was blocked.
Urals used to be underpriced compared to blends of comparable gravity/sulphur content, but as of recently is so no longer.
Just remember, it's not supply.
Great post! I encourage Russia to sell to the highest bidder no matter who it is: the more this happens, the sooner people will start conserving and Powerdown as best they can. If this makes Europe, and even parts of internal Russia start to setup biosolar habitats 3-5 years earlier, so much the better for their environment and related biodiversity in the long run. Fair higher prices, not corrupt political-driven preferential pricing schemes will make the great unwashed masses face the Peakoil 'music' sooner.
The difficult part to control in the future is my predicted rise of the detrito-terrorist. No religious ideology, like Islam, is required, just an addicted desire to maximize detritus access vs adopting Powerdown. Just as the Ukrainians stole transiting natgas last winter, and some other unknown party blew up a critical pipeline supplying Armenia, I forsee covert Europeans and/or Central Asians disabling Chinese pipelines to increase the flow to their respective country, and of course, the Chinese or some other country returning the favor some time later. Nigerian 'bunkering' is another example of theft that will bedevil oil companies worldwide postPeak.
Add this in to the enviro-terrorist, and the religio-terrorist: Gazprom and Rosneft will have their hands extremely full the further we go postPeak.
Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/24/060424184139.e1iolabv.html
Another interesting post loaded with press doublespeak in my estimation. The very fact that China feels it is most important to lock in deals to build their SPR is telling. Possibly, the Chinese topdogs are more Peakoil aware than our US topdogs.
Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
The fun's just starting!
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Paper_Chavez_moves_toward_nationalizing_Venezuela_0424.html
Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez is planning a new assault on Big Oil, potentially taking a major step toward nationalization of Venezuela's oil industry that could hurt oil-company profits, reduce production and put further pressure on global oil prices, the Wall Street Journal reports on Monday front pages.
(to pop another issue up to top-level, don't believe the CNW Marketing Research hybrid study
Fuel prices hit new vehicle sales
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/
the direct link to that article should work, but Blogger claims some kind of error:
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2006/04/earth-daze.html
ban bikes bund
In many European countries they are very popular, being much faster and regular than buses; and much more affordable than regular taxis or a personal car. I suppose they will also be a good idea for small-scale personal business in the future to come.
In this regard I find the legislation environment in the US quite discouraging for the small businesses. Only a large company could afford to pay for those licensing fees or to potentially meet the prodigious liability claims that are common here.
Can you imagine getting approval for heavier-than-air passenger travel? Basically the only reason it exists is because they can point to a long (relative) safety record, which they have because of the many sacrifices of the pioneers who took huge risks to test new designs.
If you were trying to start the "Air travel industry" from scratch now, not only would the NIMBY's prevent any airports at all from being built, but every govt from local to national would have to be convinced that the things wouldn't plummet out of the sky or cause unforeseen environmental damage or what have you. It would take decades before anyone permitted even a pilot project (ooh, bad pun, sorry) to get off the ground (groan).
I'm not sure how the vehicles compare in terms of mileage per gallon (or, as they say around here, in liters per 100 kilometers). The bus fleet and the van fleet are in an arms race, with the municipal guys and the private guys buying newer and newer vehicles. Don't know who's ahead, at the moment. Maybe the vans.
In most western countries people would not even consider these types of things due to safety concerns whereas here it quite expected that you would stand off the back hanging on for your life. I suspect that as the prices rise and the world changes we will see much more of this kind of thing long before we see people simply deciding not to go anywhere. So even if people cannot afford to drive to work in their SUV the day will come when they may be forced into using some form of shared transport to get to work.
Of course, that will only happen once other measures like invading and stealing the oil have been exhausted but I don't think those plans are likely to be successful for too long anyway.
As I understand it, on one day each month (second last Friday?), anyone who holds a net sell position is obligated to deliver oil, and anyone who holds a net buy position is obligated to receive it. I have been told there are large fines for not being able to fulfil these obligations. Does that not mean, clearly and precisely, that, at least on that one close, the market is composed of actual buyers and sellers, and that speculating money has been displaced?
I can understand how speculation can happen during the month. Looking at the most recent month, it looks a little to me like speculators tried to short oil once it got up near $70. Unfortunately for them, the price kept rising, and they were forced to buy their way out of trouble before the final close last Friday. According to this interpretation, the shorters were surpressing the price in the final days leading up to the close, but speculation was shaken out before the end of the month, rushing prices back to fair value as the close approached.
I can also understand how speculation could effect more distant contracts, and that the more distant the contract is (from the point of obligation), the more speculation could effect the contract price.
I'm still confused about the front month contract however. The MSM is often referring to speculation driving up prices, but according to my perhaps simplistic understanding, the effect of this just cannot be very big in the front month contract.
Am I wrong, if so, how? Thanks.
a) Increase in price is not caused by speculation. Media just cannot understand differences between futures and stock markets.
b) Some speculators are really taking the delivery and paying storage fees.
c) People who are really using the oil are buying distant contracts.
d) Because future prices are high, the users are willing to pay the same price for delivery also because they considere it to be "fair price".
I really would like to see more discussion of this topic. If there's some who understands commodity markets better, it would be nice to have a article about that written in TOD.
This was pretty popular back during the initial contango in some of the physical markets caused by the creation of the index funds and presumable entrance of additional retail investors to the fray who may have been bidding up contracts. Whether that was the reason for inversion or not is beyond me, but if you short 1 month out, buy the delivery month, accept delivery, and then deliver when the contract closes, there's a few dimes of 100% guar-ron-teed profit per barrel.
It's a definite mechanism of some transmission of speculation to the actual physical price, but not a huge amount.
http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,18919311%255E5003680,00.html
They've already said they don't want to be currency referrees, which is similar to saying you don't want to be dropped into a shark tank. Trade is obviously generally handled by the WTO, which, while sincere and actually somewhat effective, is too slow to matter. Convening a roundtable on oil won't kill any more dinosaurs.
Maybe they should ring up New Zealand and Iceland. Might be interested.
but since this is an open thread, let's talk tv and pop-culture's take on peak oil. i finally saw the cnn fantasy piece, "we were warned." its re-airing followed a very good environmental piece that was truly scary. makes one wonder which disaster will come first: the chicken of oil depletion or the egg of the abrupt climate change. (A: they will come together: great news, eh?!) it also stood in stark contrast to the ludicrous "we were warned" piece.
is it me, or was "we were warned" worse than bad? it communicated very few facts and its overall message seemed to be don't worry about oil and gas unless something extrinsic (hurricane, terrorism) that is really bad happens, and probably only if 2 really bad things happen in the same week.
i mean, is THAT the right message to send to joe hummer? i suppose anything that sheds light on the issue of our dependence on oil and the ramifications of its depletion is marginally positive, but this was almost negative, imo.
then i saw saw roundtable discussion on fox "news" that had juan williams shilling to be the "balance" on o'reily central saying that the current price o' gas is a combo of politics and greed, as opposed to economics and geology, because there is no shortage of oil and supply is the highest it's been in 8 years. you can't argue with that, he argued, because it's a fact. huh? didn't you just see "we were warned"?! oh yeah, it said basically the same thing, but with cooler special effects.
we are toast, folks. and we're toasting ourselves.
have a nice day,
pop
Sesno did say specifically that it would not take an extraordinary event like a hurricane or a terrorist attack to cause the problems described in their scenario, though perhaps the average viewer wouldn't notice.
Sesno seems really big on ethanol. He thinks the answer is to do what Brazil is doing. Someone should send him a link to the "Life in a Grass House" thread here.
"Melting Point," the global warming show, was pretty good. One moment that really struck a chord: when the Tuvalu native expressed anger that his way of life was being wiped out not by anything he had done, but by people in Europe and the U.S. and Canada who don't give a damn what happens to anyone else.
Today it's Tuvalu, and the Inuit, and New Orleans. Tomorrow, who knows? Rotterdam? San Franscisco? London? New York? Houston? No one cares, unless they personally are affected.
The public is anything but scared at this point. They are still more afraid of "middle-easterners with box-cutters." There's plenty of oil, if the stoopid politicians would let us drill Alaska and drop gasoline taxes, everything would be peachy.
Not everyone is glued to who is going to get cut off the next big game reality show next. Some people hardly know the news of the day. If you were to ask me 5 years ago I would have told you the 3 top stories, today, who cares.
I have a move in the works, and I have to pay gas prices that will make this move my final move of the year, if not decade or ever. If need be I can live in a cardboard box, On a back lot somewhere, but no more burning money for gas to move.
Does that count as conserving?
I don't fly for business but sometimes look for air fare deals so I can travel when I have some time off, I would think this could be similar.
But gas buddy is aimed squarely at the car culture, certainly.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/24/world/main1535625.shtml
We do live in interesting times.
There are some who argue that the United States is on the verge of morphing into a full-blown dictatorship, police-state, and surveillance-state. For example, see the following URL:
http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000228.htmhttp://www.antipasministries.com/html/file00002 28.htm
Your thoughts on the evidence and arguments presented would be greatly appreciated.
http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000228.htm
live right now ..
Triff
267 Billion tons recoverable reserves
at present mining techniques
1.1 Billion tons annual consumption
33 states have recoverable reserves
Total potential US coal resource may be
as large as 4 trillion tons
CTL costs equivalent to $35/$40 per barrel
crude equivalent ..
Triff ..
Makes siting a CTL plant easy though ..
They'll all need to be at/in the mine itself <g> ..
Hopefully the output ie liquid fuels can use
existing pipelines .. If so, hopefully we have
some coal reserves conveniently located near product
pipelines .. I was dissapointed in the obvious lack
of knowledge about the topic on the part of the
chairman Jim Bunning of (KY) ..
Triff ..
on the potential for CTL ..
1 mbpd production would require an additional
500 million tons of coal production from
the present level of 1.1 billion tons
Also a 50,000 bpd facility would cost $3.5 billion
Wonder how that compares with the cost of production
for the equivalent amount from oil sands ??
The EIA was/is projecting that by 2025 CTL would
be providing ~8% of domestic consumption and that
domestic consumption would be +24% higher than the
current +20 mbpd ..
Someone needs to start construction fast ..
Triff ..
Meanwhile, on the international front...
Three explosions hit resort town in Egypt
AP is reporting that at least 100 people are dead. It's assumed it's a terrorist attack.
I missed that law when I was in law school.
· We think that crude prices (WTI/Brent) are likely to range between $70 and $80/bl for the reminder of this year; we raise our 2006 annual average forecast from $61 to $73/bl (+19%);
· We believe that markets will remain tight next year, as new refinery capacity is coming slower than we had thought; We raise our 2007 annual average forecast from $48 to $68/bl (+43%);"
...but I won't list any more, just so you'll be motivated to read the piece. It's short, won't take more than two minutes.
I don't know what they're smoking, but whatever it is, it's enough to make them think that $40 to $50/barrel is a band where they believe the long term equilibrium price to be. They must have some really good hydroponics going on over there...
Hmmm. A lot of these financial types were predicting that prices would go back down in 2007, due to new production coming on line. Looks like some, at least, are backing off that prediction.
If this isn't the peak, this is what the peak will be like.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10001013&sid=aLUmzdUcB9o8&refer=commodity_futures
In other news, the dollar took quite a tumble today.
Disconnect between the spot market and futures? Or is the spot market always different?
Others are down $2 to $73. Phew! Now we can breath easy.
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/energyprices.html
I don't see any reason yet for oil to tumble clear back down to the $50 range and let's not even pull out the Steve Forbes Comedy Central audition laughtrack of $35 per barrel. I expect oil to hover near $70 now until another external event sets it off again. That could be Iran, Nigeria, or a major terrorist event aimed at Europe or the United States.
Finally, we keep hearing the rumblings of discontent from China about the dollar. While its arguable whether China would be able to trigger a collapse of the dollar, any large scale move out of dollars by China would give many other dollar holders reason to believe that they are depreciating even faster than they originally feared. And a depreciating dollar would wreak its own havoc on energy prices.
March 28 Speech by Bill Clinton at London Business School
Interesting that he said it overseas, where there would be limited coverage by the U.S. press.
When Bill was president I didn't actually like him, but I was happy how moderate policies resulted from his fight/deadlock with congress. I thought the whole Monica thing was tawdry and that I'd never miss him.
I was very surprised a few years later when GWB accomplished the impossible, and made me miss Bill.
Now he shows that he gets it ... maybe that will help when he's first lady?
Someone who tells the American people the truth about peak oil can never be elected. No one wants to hear that the happy motoring lifestyle is over. That we are living in a brief moment of mind-boggling prosperity, thanks to oil, and it's all ending, probably sooner rather than later.
No, any legitimate peak oil politician will have to do what Clinton did, and offer a hopeful future. It will at least get people thinking about the issue. And maybe they'll actually do the right thing, while waiting for the technological miracle.
The harder problems are socal and political. Those include getting congress more aligned with solutions than with pork barrel spending, and getting consumers aligned with efficiency rathern than inefficiency/complaining.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/content/11458007011007960902/index.php
So, I imagine Odo will weigh in.
Then, how PR works:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/content/1145583906231181372/
My 2005 Prius was listed at $22.4K, while the average new car is priced at $26-27K. You can add it up a lot of ways, but I think a car that costs less than average, and gets the best real-world mileage of any midsize car, is a win.
As far as the "tricks" - sure, you need them. It is a hard engineering problem to get 50 mpg in a midsize car. If it was easy
General Motorseveryone would do it.And I think everbody likes the idea of regenerative braking. It's nice to capture and use energy that you'd be otherwise throwing away as brake pad/disc heat. The challenge is of course to do that energy capture economically. The current hybrid electric systems appeal to some, but they are obviously not an inexpensive option.
(though technically Toyota tried to sell me a Nav system for more than the "hybrid premium.")
The idea was that the wear and tear on a standard starter motor with frequent starts and stop was prohibitive.
Wonder what that design evolved into...
(It was only a couple months ago that it dawned on me that "echo" is an appeal to liberal-left tree-hugging enviros.)
The PR/Marketing industry will gladly lead us off the cliff. There's just too much $$$ out there, and our 'freedoms' allow them to BS us to death. It's one example of the problem with extreme wealth disparity. There's too much money sloshing around out there; that money does not have the same interests as you or I. (It doesn't breathe air, eat food, or ever die. It has no home or neighborhood and loves no one.)
http://www.theweeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/132tcvll.asp
Actually, the huge added revenues would barely make a dent in the Jupiter-sized debt Bush has rung up, so no problem there.
There are two constituencies: a very small number of people with the bucks, and a very large number of people with the votes. The whole idea is to make deals with the people with the bucks so as to get the money to run campaigns in order to promise the people with the votes that you have their interests at heart and get them to vote for you.
The candidate with the most bucks is usually the candidate with the most successful propaganda, and hence the candidate who wins.
That's about all you need to know about American politics.
I personally am not voting anymore. Why? Because my vote is meaningless, and my vote only validates a corrupt system, and I no longer want to be part of that. So, essentially, my non-vote is a vote of 'no confidence'. Which I feel is a stronger statement than a vote for the lesser of two evils.
I am in the passive-aggressive mode right now.
I personally am not voting anymore. Why? Because my vote is meaningless, and my vote only validates a corrupt system, and I no longer want to be part of that. So, essentially, my non-vote is a vote of 'no confidence'. Which I feel is a stronger statement than a vote for the lesser of two evils.
We should pass a law requiring a
"none of the above" choice on all
ballots just to let TPTB know the
level of voter dissatisfaction with
the status quo ..
Triff
That sounds to me like you are out of Pepsi, and your answer is to keep checking the fridge.
O'Reilly dissed futures traders and speculators as gamblers that are artificially inflating the price of oil in a time of war! He said there was no profiteering during WWII (!) and it is shameful that oil companies are doing it now, when there really is no shortage of oil. His opponent Johnson did a pretty good job of rebutting him, citing the "why weren't they colluding when the price was only $20 a barrel?" argument.
Only in the apartment next door, the guys are all worshipping the "magic fridge" hoping it would produce beer...
http://turbulence.org/Works/oilstandard/
"converts all prices from U.S. Dollars into the equivalent value in barrels of crude oil."
http://www.bostongasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
with lots of fun adjustments for looking at the data.
For example you can overlay the price of oil. This chart
http://xrl.us/kzyb
pretty much forces the answer to the question: "What the current run up in petrol prices is due to?" But recognize that other time window's are less compelling.
http://blogs.king5.com/archives/2006/04/are_we_complain_1.html
When I have a feeling that the economy is at a turning point, I take a rest from looking at the usual published numbers and "count" things such as numbers of unsold cars at nearby car dealerships, vacancy rates at new housing developments (very hard to get honest info here--but extremely useful to get even rough approximations). Also I talk to people who have little motive to bullshit me to get qualitative info on car sales, housing markets, demand for grain exports, shortages of, e.g. rebar, etc., etc.
For what it is worth, my casual empiricism (or SWAG or horseback opinion) suggests that we are close to the onset of a recession. IMO the housing market (especially for new construction) is much weaker now than suggested by numbers two months old, and a lot of car salesmen are about ready to sign up for food stamps.
In regard to car sales, many people who trade in vehicles have been "upside down" (owing more than their cars are worth) for years, and clever salesmen have "rolled-up" such deficiencies with creative techniques (i.e., fraud) to conceal this situation and make it appear that there is some value to the traded-in vehicle. This no longer can be done, especially in the case of big and rather new SUVs where people are sometimes upside down to the tune of $15,000 to $20,000.
With housing and car sales down, I think we will see a recession called officially within nine months.
I realize that I am sticking my neck way out here, but I trust my "nose" for timely information more than I do the official statistics.
If my prediction is correct, then demand for oil in the U.S. could decline somewhat (probably not a helluva lot), and what impact this decline might have on speculative expectations and the price of oil is anybody's guess.
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-chinas-oil-prices-forecast-rise-/2006/04/25/1604426.htm
"With international oil prices breaching US$75 per barrel, China's crude prices, which fluctuate with international benchmarks, are expected to rise considerably as well. The country's Daqing crude price is forecast to rise to 4,701 (US$586.55) yuan/ton in May, 421 yuan/ton higher than that in April"
If there are about 7 barrels of oil to a ton. then this means that the Chinese think their oil will be $83/b this month and $91/b next month.
That does not really tell us much - most of us could make that assumption. What is more telling is the comment that they (BP) do not fully understand why prices are rising. If the head of the UK's largest company, with the resources at his disposal, has problems understanding what is driving price movements, it makes the forecasts make by various pundits seem like pure guesswork.
Of course - those with a more suspicious nature might believe that BP understands exactly what is driving prices, but prefer not to open that particular debate.
Quote is from BBC business news
Another debate: (emphasis added)
Yesterday, there was an article on the front page of USA Today, about the levees in New Orleans. It interviewed some of the people who were rebuilding, and they said Katrina was a "hundred year storm." They seemed to think that meant it wouldn't come along again for another 100 years, which is not correct.
Worse, I suspect Katrina was not a 100-year storm. Not any more. Global warming may mean storms like Katrina are five-year storms or ten-year storms, not hundred-year storms.
New Orleans was hit pretty hard forty years ago, and then last year. The thing is that growth and loss of wetland area (the natural barrier between N.O. and the gulf) has increased exponentially.
Technically, Katrina was only a Cat III when she finally came ashore (I read that but don't have a link, the weather service revised their category estimate after analyzing the data after the storm).
A Cat III is NOT a "hundred year storm" by any definition.
Yes, certainly warmer ocean waters will mean more/stronger hurricanes on average, but people may not wait for the averages to total up. They may see a quiet year or two (completely possible, even with a global warming and hurricane connection) as a proof that there is nothing to worry about.
about .. Maybe we really are 'sea monkeys' after
all <gg> .. But I do know that if we insist on
trying to build cities below sea-level a la New
Orleans or permit development within 20 foot
elevations above mean high tide levels that we'll
have to assume significant annual destruction to that
infrastructure ..
Triff ..