Perhaps we need an open thread?
Posted by Heading Out on February 28, 2006 - 12:18am
(Grin) For those not coal-inclined, (or perhaps now the MMS) you might want to note that the January figures from a different source are showing an OPEC drop of about 460,000 bd.
And for those interested in natural gas, drilling in the Barnett Shale continues, giving you a sense of how progress on a well occurs. As for the rest, herewith enjoy this open thread...
[editor's note, by Prof. Goose]Thanks to TF for bringing this piece to our attention, a prominent news source (Boston Globe) with a laissez-faire attitude (after playing he said/she said). Quality reporting there folks, way to help with the public debate, eh?
Quote:
The journalist's rule says: follow the money. This rule, however, is not really axiomatic but derivative, in that money, as even our vice president will tell you, is really a way of tracking energy. We'll follow the energy.
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If you follow the energy, eventually you will end up in a field somewhere. Humans engage in a dizzying array of artifice and industry. Nonetheless, more than two thirds of humanity's cut of primary productivity results from agriculture, two thirds of which in turn consists of three plants: rice, wheat, and corn. In the 10,000 years since humans domesticated these grains, their status has remained undiminished, most likely because they are able to store solar energy in uniquely dense, transportable bundles of carbohydrates. They are to the plant world what a barrel of refined oil is to the hydrocarbon world. Indeed, aside from hydrocarbons they are the most concentrated form of true wealth--sun energy--to be found on the planet.
Ultimately the carrying capacity is determined by its weakest link; for many societies that is probably its winter / drought food availability.
I designed 2 adjacent pipelines in Venezuela. One from a marine terminal for light oil, delivered from the good quality Mesa fields, and take it 140 km inland to the heavy oil Zuata Field. The light was blended with the heavy (APIº9.6 bitumin) at the production facilities in Zuata. It was then heated to min 175ºF to decrease the blends viscosity to levels capable of being pumped via another pipeline back to the marine terminal. This process was changed later to use naphtha in place of the Mesa crude. An adjacent separating plant was started up to separate the naphtha and recycle it back to the Zuata field, where it is blended again.
But the background to this is greenhouse gases continuing and increasing at a high rate and 850 coal power plants (at least most will have cleaner coal technology) planned or coming on line combined in the USA, China, and India in the next few years.
I think it will take ski runs being closed down in Colorado and the Alps for people to get serious. Until then, business as usual will continue with some renewable energy getting a larger, but not massive, slice of the energy pie.
The Straight Dope has a short piece on Peak Oil this week. In response to a question asking if peak oil production is going to hit in the next 40-60 years:
Word is getting out indeed.
There is a "debate" in the forums associated with Cecil's columns:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=2b37a0add2a1835184872ef610c33f9f&t=360276
Not a very good debate - just lots of pointless arguing, really.
He neglects to mention that nuclear energy isn't going to affect the transportation issue, which is arguably where the most important breakdowns will occur. But maybe Adams was too reluctant to claim that hydrogen or electric cars are going to save us.
Of course, you don't want idiots to get any of the fissionables, as they can get a bang out of them. This is the biggest problem of nukes in general. Breeders mean that you can recycle waste most-way. Spent fuel is mostly U-238 with some Pu-239 added for flavour from normal reactors. The Pu-239 comes from neutron bombardment of U-238 during use. A "perfect" breeder would end up making waste made of fission byproduct elements about half the atomic weight of the fissionable.
As above, fission has its problems, but nothing is problem-free. I'd rather risk an occasional Chernobyl vs. the certainty of global warming with using up the coal. With fusion, all bets are off. It could take centuries to figure it out - assuming we keep civilisation up and running! (and that's a dangerous assumption!)
Of course, many would argue that many of the world's leading idiots already have fissionables.
From my Physics background (decades ago), U-233 is not an ideal bomb ingredient but can be made to work with an effort.
Bush has decided to push MOX recycling (do not seperate all of the relatively short lived and intensely radioactive elements above Pu). These elements have some fuel potential as well. The heat and radiation from these make fabrication from stolen fuel "problematic".
Estimates of fuel reserves are with current technology & prices. Uranium has been prospected for and mined for only a few decades; much less than most other minerals. No interest in new sources for two decades or so.
Fission reactors have considerable prospects for that "New Technology Silver Bullet", unlike oil.
BTW: Used fuel may become a good source of platinum group elements (when U atoms split, they do so in a variety of ways).
Lithium is fairly expensive. A lot of the cost is processing raw material to get it. Making sodium and aluminium has the same problem. Electrolisis is a major cost.
How nukes can serve transportation is to have electrified mass transit. Buses and trains, both passenger and freight. No fun, but a commute is possible. Battery cars (any battery) may be rich peoples' toys in the long run. One good thing about extensive mass transit is that drunk driving will no longer exist.
"Australian crude oil and condensate production
has been declining since the early 2000s,
mainly as a result of lower production from a
number of mature fields. For example, production
from the Gippsland Basin, which previously
accounted for a significant proportion of
total Australian production, has declined at an
annual average rate of around 17 per cent since
1999-2000."
http://www.abareconomics.com/AC_Mini_Site/pdf/AC_Dec05_Energy_[0323].pdf
This 17% decline in our main oil basin means we will only be about 50% self-sufficient in about 5 years (down from about 65% at the moment). Oil imports now make-up the second largest factor of very large monthly current account balances. ASPO Australia has helped set up a Senate Inquiry into this situation:
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/rrat_ctte/oil_supply/submissions/sublist.htm
Here in australia we don't do anything without Uncle Sam's say-so.
(I'm only half kidding - it's partly a cultural inferiority complex that stops us from adopting ideas that have not been tested "overseas")
Even before Australia's oil peaked, when we produced what we consumed, we still exported most of our oil, as it was very valuable light fractions, and imported slightly heavier and cheaper oil for processing and because the local oil is no good for diesel.
Macarthur Coal, one of our local coal mining companies, just announced a 240% increase in profits, so we can afford $70 a barrel oil imports for now
I futher we may need a coal to oil plant but Australia has no need to do it at the moment.
Of course in there is war with Iran we may need one very quickly..
The West takes lead on climate change
Also:
Parched New Mexico gets a taste of climate change
possible rise of 8-12 degrees in New Mexico's
average temperature by the end of this century.'
Is that Celcius or Fahrenheit?
Either way it is probably a substantial under-
estimate, since anything that came out a month
ago would not have taken into account the
latest data and thoughts on positive feed-backs.
More likely, N M will be largely uninhabitable
within 50 years.
Anyway, it won't be the lack of snow on ski
fields that will bring the climate change debate
to a head, it will be the widespread fuel and
gas shortages that result from a series of GOM
hurricanes worse than experienced in '05.
Does it really matter? I think, under these circumstances, that it's simply the difference between "roasted" and "blackened."
http://www.ci.seattle.wa.us/mayor/climate/default.htm#cities
This is a bottom-up initiative in the States, lacking federal leadership.
can somebody tell us how well coal gasification could be performed underground? I ask this because recently an enormous coal resevoir has been located underneath the sea in Norway. Obviously there are quite a number of problems if one were to mine those layers, but would it be commercially attractive to gasify those layers underneath and extract the resulting gas via drilling?
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/1/6/181130/4446
As far as the vast deposits of coal under the seabed off the coast of Norway, I think that in situ gasification is the only approach that has any chance at all of being halfway technically and economically feasible (mining the stuff appears to be out of the question). Still, there would be many daunting technical and possibly environmental challeges to doing in situ seabed gasification on a commercial scale. However, it's feasibility is certainly worth exploring.
(again, correct word?). Methane is then free to move.
I think you have to drill quite a few wells and fracture the coal layer. You can then get the methane to surface in the same way a conventional gas well would function.
Power generation using CBM is/was(?) common in some parts of the US. It was a hot topic in the UK during the 90's.
But it did not quite take off.
Wait drags on for foreign access to Kuwait's oil
Better living through chemistry:
DuPont Looking to Displace Fossil Fuels as Building Blocks of Chemicals
Hopeful.
But once again, the Devil is probably in those darn petrochemical inputs and net energy loss.
We shall see.
Wasn't Dupont the company that did so much to demonize agricultural hemp, the miracle crop that competed with nylon?
Using corn and other biomass as feedstock for organic chemical production makes about a hundred times more sense than merely using for fuel, a fuel with an EROEI only marginally greater than unity. Biomass is valuable, so it should be used to make high-value products.
DuPont has been having a rough time of it lately, and if I had to bet on it, I'd say that Mr. Halliday's days are numbered.
Being that DuPont wants to be seen as a science and technology company rather than as a chemical company, it dropped its famous 'Better Living Through Chemistry' slogan many years ago. It's been using, 'DuPont, the Miracles of Science' for quite some time now.
Regardless of Mr. Halliday's optimism, I get the feeling that it's a company that has somewhat lost its way.
Now the most interesting part,
Note! According to the description, the Barnett Shale is a live gas generator, with anerobic bacteria feeding on trapped organics and releasing methane gas.
Note! The reporting geologist believes the bacteria can be feed using CO2 to make NG and increase the production.
If this is true, it throws a bit of cold water on gas depletion to some extent and would additionally be a nice place for Montana to send all the CO2 they propose to make from their coal to liquid process.
Find it at this URL,
http://www.thebarnettshale.com/
> Note! The reporting geologist believes the bacteria can be feed using CO2 to make NG and increase the production.
Scientifically quite interesting, but a "footnote" for Peak NG.
It is hard to concieve of a series of such fields that can generate enough new natural gas to feed a few % of US demand.
The rate of organic production would need to increase dramatically, and how long till the trapped organics are depleted ?
There are nine samples, ranging from extra-light to extra-heavy. Generally, the lighter samples are sweet, whereas the heavier ones are sour. All in all, the smells remind me of certain occasions where I have driven along certain stretches of the northern New Jersey Turnpike (what a surprise!). One surprise is that many of the grades have a viscosity less than that of water, and even the oil designated as extra heavy has more of a fluidic character than one might think.
Here you can see the properties of the oil that the USA is buying and putting into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. You can compare your samples to all the listed properties they have there.
Strategic Petroleum Reserve Crude Oil Assay Manual
http://www.spr.doe.gov/reports/docs/CrudeOilAssayManual.pdf
At this HPI website you will find the API gravities listed for about 250 different fields from around the world.
Don't look around too much here, unless you have a lot of money to spend.
http://www.hpiconsultants.com/crude_assay/viewlist.htm
This has field, origin, APIº, Sulfur %
http://www.hpiconsultants.com/petroleum/PRHcrude.htm
Refining Yields-1996 http://www.hpiconsultants.com/petroleum/HPRY_Specs.htm
Refinery Types
http://www.hpiconsultants.com/petroleum/HPRY%20RefyConfigs.htm
This is Cheveron's Crude Oil Marketing Site
They list the areas of the world where they have oil reserves and clicking these buttons brings up a lot of properties of the oil from many of their operating regions.
http://www.chevron.com/crudemarketing/posted_pricing_daily_california.asp
Hope you find those useful.
Search for more using Name_of_Crude or Country followed by "oil assay".
No matter how obvious, justified and logical question this is, the answer is also as much obvious and logical: because it is not profitable. Nobody would profit from conservation, and to lower extent nobody would profit from clean (but expensive) technologies. Therefore nobody is doing it seriously. By profitable I mean for corporations, the individual "consumers" are too weak to have much other choice but take what they are given.
Of course there are companies that make money by selling more efficient vehicles, insulations etc. but this affects the efficiency of the things we use. Conservation would mean that we voluntary cut back and use less energy, doing less stuff.
So question is: how do we make conservation profitable business? How can for example Philip Morris make money by not selling their tobaccos? Any ideas?
I think that energy is much too cheap relative to labour and capital profits. The market is not pricing the future costs of consuming a non-renewable resource, it is just reflecting the marginal supply/demand ratio. Hence the problem we have.
They cut me off the minute I fired in the question. During the pre-live screening session, the screener said he had never heard of Hubbert's curve. I told him to Google it. The screener said it sounded like some kook theory because from the very first day mankind started pumping oil, we were by defintion "depleting" it. So what's the big deal? I explained about production rates and that seemed to satisfy him, so he put me on air.
Max Shultz dodged the question with the usual rhetoric about Tar sands and the idea that the Chicken Little peak freaks have been saying this for over 100 years. It was pretty obvious that Ronn Owen had never heard about Peak Oil. He bought Shultz's dodge answer and moved on. Yeaaah. It all flashes by in a few seconds on talk radio. (Any way, maybe someone out there in the Bay Area was alerted, googled Peak Oil, and became part of the PO aware herd. Maybe not. Who knows?)
Another caller before me asked where the so-called Manhatten Institute gets its money from and Shultz dodged that one too. He claimed he didn't know and he just got to the place 4 months ago. Ha.
Wow. Now Bush is one of us.
Here is little more info on Max Shultz of MI
The above came from this article of his
Other articles here
This is all about posturing and pork.
You ask where they get their money. I don't know the answer, but it would seem that they look to conservative members of the New York financial community for support -- just look at the board of trustees listed on their website. As a rule, charitable institutions like to recruit as trustees, financial heavy hitters who donate their own funds and also hit up other heavy hitters for additional money. Names on the board that jump out at me: Byron Wien of Morgan Stanley, hedge fund managers Bruce Kovner and Bruce Wilcox, mutual fund and private client money manager Chris Browne (whose firm, Tweedy Browne, has the same address as the Manhattan Institute), investment banker and former Nixon honcho Peter Flanigan, Tom Tisch, whose family built and controls Loews Corporation, and Maurice Greenberg, disgraced former CEO of insurance giant AIG. Not too bad of a start if you're looking for cash.
Talk show host Ronn Owens introduced Max Shultz of MI as a nice and regular "fellow" who knows all about economics and energy.
The interview took place in Wash D.C. As the Q&A began, it became obvious (well to at least to me) that Max Shultz was a master of evasion & obfuscation rather than he being an honest "fellow". I threw the Peak Oil question into the pile just to put it out there as being something Shultz was not talking about.
A one-day archive of the Ronn Owens show (10AM-11AM) may supposedly be found here: Windows Media version
I heard your call. I was on hold to the station--you beat me to the punch on the Peak Oil question. ^_^;
I think KGO did a great dis-service with this interview. I'd be tempted to call it one-sided, but the information was so thin that it's hard for me say thit it supported any side at all.
I wonder if Mr Owens could be convinced to do another segment, this time with an oil geologist, or at least someone who has researched the literature on oil deplition. Someone from TOD? (hint-hint)
You had a good question, I'm not really sure that you were cut that short compared to other callers, it's the style of that show. Next time I get a chance I plan to start with:
if you Google Peak Oil...
at least someone heard it --thanks
The show is still available on archive for a few hours at this Real Player site (I suggest you launch it in a separate window and let it run in the background cause there's a lot of news interjected between the talk radio and it runs an hour. Then jump around till you find sections you like --my call came at about 33 minutes into the show)
I just re-listened to the show. Didn't hear all of it this morning. Shultz is not all that one sided. He's a big nuke supporter. Thinks that nuke tech is the same as silicon tech, that great advances have been made and this is not your Uncle Chernobyl's reactor anymore.
BTW, have you ever succeeded getting on the air with Ronn? He's a fast talker. You have to have your shpeal (elevator pitch) prepared ahead of time. You only get one short bite (sound bite) at the apple.
The first time you call, you may not realize you have to pass through the screeners first. They can throw all sorts of wild questions at you. The phone rings and rings. Just when you are about to give up and hang, a real bad connection is made. They ask, who are you and what do you want?
You have to be prepared with the questions and explanations ahead of time.
When they finally put you on with Ronn, there is no warning. You hear the show, usually a commercial playing through your cell phone (playing in future time because the actual show is tape delayed). You fumble with your radio, shut it off to get rid of echo. Suddenly, Ronn says, "Joseph from Palmdale, what's your question?" That's why most folk sound confused first time around. No warning. You pop your question. Maybe Ronn will ask for clarification maybe he'll cut you out. You never know.
Radio is very fast paced and very linguistic.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/huber.htm
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/bottomlesswell/
http://www.forbes.com/huber
Thanks
I did not realize the connection between Huber and Schultz
Lynch (and of course Yergin) are excellent candidates for the McKelvey Award but I've got to give the advantage to Lynch here--an Easy Bake oven! I am impressed!
The good news has been the availability of product imports, which has really helped cover any shortfalls post Katrina/Rita. The bad news is the production data, which is lower, year-over-year, even factoring out the impacts of the hurricanes. I wouldn't focus on the headlines, if I were you.
The market seems to be well supplied with crude ATM; beware OPEC cutting production officially on March 8th, beware Chavez redirecting his oil, especially if the price drops to $56, beware Cantarell's decline, watch out for the off-field geopolitical plays. Hang onto those high stocks just in case, fear (and buy oil) if they drop much.
We don't know yet to what extent countries have replenished their reserves after the hurricanes and the diversion of stocks (especially of refined products) to US following the hurricanes and consequent price spike. Signs are that China held off buying oil a bit towards the end of 2005 and decided to / had to buy more than usual in January. Oil prices have a funny habit of spiking up in late March / early April.
Appreciate it.
"But what's troubling now is that Shell is falling way behind rivals like Exxon and BP despite spending billions more each year on exploring and drilling new wells. Last year Exxon replaced 112 percent of production, and BP came up with 95 percent. "I have never seen anything like this," says Fadel Gheit, a veteran energy analyst with Oppenheimer & Co. "Shell used to represent the gold standard in this industry, but lately they can't get their act together."
I did not think that either Exxon or BP were replacing their production at anything like this.
Are they overstating their discoveries or are they really discovering all this oil? If this is the case what is wrong with Shell.
A permanent US military presence there to preserve the supply chain upstream is not just a possibility, it is the reality. The downsteam problems regarding LNG terminals in the US are another equally pressing problem and not one I am sanguine about solving in the next 5 years or so.
OK, TOD readers, get it?
When is "Peak Population?"
I do not know. I think we are close. Several nations have death rates in excess of birth rates at this time. As cheap fossil fuels fades away, cheap food goes too.
The Green Revolution was a horrible horrible mistake.
By the Way. This movie is still MGM's greatest production. 1972 Rules. For those of you who haven't seen this film at least 5 times, it is as important as Dr. Strangelove or Syriana. Please Do.
In fact, 'Soylent Green' should be the the official movie of TOD. Correct me if I am wrong.
Soon after that, scientists came up with the Green Revolution --which I don't know the precise details of, but it entailed a switch over to genetically engineered crops that resisted bugs better and absorbed nutrients from artificial fertilizer (made with NG), thereby vastly improving the "productivity" of our agricultural sector and proving the Chicken Little folk wrong once again.
The famines predicted by Club of Rome did not materialize in the 1990's. This gave cause to the cornucopians to cry, see Chicken Little was wrong again! There are no limits. The mind of man can conquer all! The markets will provide. Technology will provide. Our best days are ahead of us.
I think Soylent Green was also Edward G. Robinson's last movie before he passed on.
IMO this film depicts the future as impacted by a number of significant problems, namely pollution, soil erosion, overfishing, and overpopulation.
Although the film is not specific to peak oil or oil depletion, I highly recommend it.
Some other good books, both by John Brunner:
"Stand on Zanzibar"
"The Sheep Look Up"
Apparently 'Soylent Green' is based on a book by Harry Harrison called 'Make Room! Make Room!' Google searches and reviews for 'Make Room!' have references to the two books you mentioned by Brunner.
I was hoping either you or somebody else with relevant knowledge could comment as I am eager to read and don't know where to go first.
There are magnificent bibliographic tomes on science fiction; few genres have had such devoted fans.
Hardly anybody goes to SF conventions anymore, but you can meet some really interesting old writers and engineers there. I have no idea what is available online, but for published books I've found librarians at big libraries very helpful, and of course there is the Great Amazon with her vast bank of lists of books that once upon a time were in print.
Big cities often have bookshops that specialize in science fiction. In Minneapolis it is Uncle Hugo's (named after the famous writer and editor Hugo Gernsback, who, in turn, was named after Victor Hugo). And, of course, you can order from most of these shops online, by phone, and even (Gasp!) by snail mail.
Anytime I have a brilliant thought, it is likely to be a memory of something I read in 1953 in one of the two dozen or so science-fiction magazines then in print or one of the hundreds of books of hard solid "nuts and bolts" science fiction that year.
You youngsters missed not only the sexual revolution of the sixties but also the Golden Ages of science fiction.
It takes luck to be born in the best of times, the worst of times . . . .
Recently I've been seeing pro-nuclear ads. Scenes of little children playing in the midst of natural beauty, with a voiceover implying that you're a bad parent if you tell your kids they have to chose between technology and the environment.
They're by the Nuclear Energy Institute:
http://www.nei.org/
Apparently, they started the ads in response to Bush's SOTU speech. It's supposed to be a multi-year campaign.
Militants give 10 conditions - To release other hostages "be ensured that oil companies no longer operate behind the soldiers, disband the security Joint Task Force (JTF) and demilitarise Ijaw land."
Oil pipeline blown up in Nigeria, but said to be unlinked with militants "No. If this actually happened, it may have been carried out by local villagers or thieves," Gbomo said.