Chinese demand growth continues (for oil and everything else too...)
Posted by Heading Out on December 7, 2006 - 12:08pm
One could start by noting that China's economy has been growing at 10.7% this year about 2.7% above the initial target of 8%, a number that has also been set as the official rate for next year, at this point. And while there are some publicity stunts, such as trying to stop private cars driving for a day, that will both highlight the current reported consumption of 8.7 mbd by those cars, it will also highlight the benefits of public transportation, one can assume that the current trend of higher than official growth rates may well continue. However even though the power generation system is currently hurting due to a drought that has lowered water levels, newly built coal and natural gas plants should cover the shortage.
China's seasonal hydropower output has been falling since August as dry weather shrinks reservoirs, but two years of rapidly rising coal- and gas-fired power generation should prevent another surge in oil demand.Power generation from hydropower plants -- which can produce up to a quarter of China's electricity -- fell 10.3 percent on year in October, raising the burden on other plants to meet China's 10-plus percent growth in electricity demand.
Output was down by 8 percent and 4 percent, respectively, in the preceding two months, as water reserves shrank and the southwest was crippled by a drought that state media said was the worst in over a century.
Of the total, 2.5 million barrels on two tankers were Oman crude, and one tanker of about 1.9 million barrels each came from Yemen, Russia and Kuwait, one source said. Crude traders had speculated that some of the additional barrels could be from Oman after top refiner Sinopec, the largest single buyer of Omani crude, was seen lifting around eight million barrels of the grade for November loading, more than its usual four to six million.Certainly if prices are lower, and the Chinese need to grow their SPR, this would be a good time to grab that opportunity. Though there are other opportunities they are also taking advantage of.It was unclear whether the move was part of Beijing's long-term energy strategy to provide an emergency buffer amid rising imports or a commercial move by Sinopec, which has leased 10 million barrels of capacity for its own use as the government debates policy.
Rosneft, the Russian oil company is now apparently going to invest heavily in China.
Russia's state-run oil giant Rosneft is to build hundreds of petrol stations in China as part of a plan to double its business in Asia.Supplies through the current pipeline from Kazakhstan will be raised by a million metric tons, and in addition the Chinese can expect more supplies from Sakhalin Island. In addition the Chinese have arranged to receive natural gas from IranThe scheme is part of a joint venture between Rosneft and China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC). Rosneft plans to build a joint refinery in China with CNPC. Also as part of the deal, CNPC will extract crude oil from Russia's Eastern oil fields, and Rosneft will increase its crude exports to China.
Speaking at the opening ceremony for the Rosneft Asia Pacific office in Beijing, chief executive Sergei Bogdanchikov said his company would increase the amount of oil it sells to China by around 7 million tonnes to 20 million in 2007. Russia is seeking to diversify its energy exports away from Europe and is already building two gas pipelines to China.
"According to the agreement, 3m tonnes of LNG will be exported (annually) by Pars LNG project for a 25-year period to the Chinese market starting early 2011," NIGEC official Majid Zamani was quoted as saying.and is now talking with OPEC about more formal relations, particularly to remove Chinese dependence on oil from the "hot spots" of the world. Chinese demand for natural gas is anticipated to grow so that they will need to import an equivalent amount to the Iranian supply from Malaysia. One wonders, as they look at larger quantities of foreign imports, if they will also start looking at having it shipped in solid form.The Pars LNG project, which teams up the National Iranian Oil Company, French Total and Malaysian Petronas, is one of three consortia in Iran producing LNG.
Phase 11 of Iran's offshore South Pars gas field, which is still to be finalised, is slated to feed the LNG production facilities of the project.
The Chinese are also making moves to open more of their markets to foreign firms, although the restrictions that they are apparently putting on those interested may limit the opportunity more than a little.
Those seeking permits must have refining capacity, an import business or wholesale supplies, the ministry said in guidelines published on its Web site (www.mofcom.gov.cn).Total, however, plans on being one of the players.They must also have at least 10,000 cubic meters of storage capacity, and access to pipelines, dedicated rail lines, docks or specially equipped vehicles for transport.
Looks as though there is a lot going on over there.
These posts are a lot of work, and the authors appreciate your helping them get more readers for their work however you can.
I have previously commented on the top two oil importers--the US and China--versus the top two oil exporters--KSA and Russia.
First, all four regions are showing exponential increase in domestic consumption--KSA and Russia a year over year increase of 13% from 2004 to 2005, with no signs of any decrease on the horizon.
Regarding production, the US and KSA are currently showing production declines. China and Russia are both basically flat, to slightly up. I predict that both China and Russia will soon start showing production declines.
In any case, at this point in time, 12/06, what the top two importers want to import is increasing exponentially, while what the top two exporters are jointly exporting is declining exponentially. I estimate that the combined exports from KSA and Russia cannot currently meet the combined demand from the US and China.
The bidding wars have commenced. As Deffeyes said, let's hope the bidding wars are fought with currencies and not with nukes.
My only other explanation would be that while China is using more SOMEONE else has to be using less. Which countries are SOMEONE?
The poorest countries first, in areas like Africa, (and the poorer people in richer countries) then the demand destruction will move "Up the food-chain."
But in any case, world production and exports are clearly going down. We can argue why, but the production and exports are falling as the mathematical HL models predicted. So, someone is conserving.
Our problem here in the states is that our demand for imports is going up for two reasons: falling production and increasing demand. For our import demand to stay constant, our demand, in terms of barrels per day, has to fall at the same rate that our production is falling.
I hope they include that as blackouts, less water-pumping, declining transport infrastructure of all kinds, and other undesired effects mount: that water & food shortages will directly determine the resulting violence levels.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
<small>
Top countries by percentage decline in oil usage 2004-2005. Source BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2006.
</small>
Oil exporters - perhaps the strongest group
OECD
China
The rest
And the pain and trouble is likley to start in "the rest" - big Asian countries like India, Indonesia and Pakistan, Latin American countries, FSU republics - Ukraine and Belarus, and Africa - IMO. Could start with gas this winter - if its cold.
The US has a MASSIVE balance of trade deficit, high oil use/capita with a low "price elasticity of demand" (absent recession/depression).
Japan, China, India and the EU can export enough to oil exporters to pay for what they need/want. (In the case of India, ~1 million workers). Most of those nations listed can cut back on oil consumption fairly easily w/o major social & economic disruptions. To varying degreees, they all have leadership that recognizes the problem and are taking inadequate steps to prepare. (Better to take 1/4th, 1/3rd or 1/2 the needed infrastructure, etc. steps today than none at all, see GWB).
None of the above is true for the US.
The suffering will NOT be spread evenly, and the US seems near the front of the queue to me.
Best Hopes for the next US President,
Alan
The US has a low, not a high, price elasticity of demand :-((
So even 250,000 b/day short term reductions take major changes in "behavior".
Best Hopes for a high long term price elasticity of demand for EVERYONE, (It's a good thing)
Alan
Westexas is a good guy, but you'll get much better historical references from me. And you can work your way off both. Make up your own mind...
In fact, you're gonna have to follow my leads to prove non-partisan. Gotcha. Trust me, you'll like it.
1956 was a great year.
Warning:
Even SendOilPlease and AngryChimp will like this. This is why Oil CEO still has friends.[roll soundtrack now]
09:55 07Dec2006 RTRS-Japan Nov oil data suggest 6 pct drop in demand
TOKYO, Dec 7 (Reuters) - Japanese oil demand likely resumed this year's falling streak in November, dropping about 6 percent from a year ago as the winter got off to a mild start, Reuters calculations based on industry data show.
Oil product deliveries in the world's third-largest consumer over the four weeks to Dec. 2 fell 5.7 percent from a year earlier to 14.26 million kilolitres (89.7 million barrels), according to calculations based on fuel production, imports, exports and stock data from the Petroleum Association of Japan (PAJ).
The calculations, which exclude naphtha as no weekly data was available from last year, mimic those made by the U.S. Department of Energy to estimate domestic consumption.
Official data from the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI) will be released on Dec. 28.
The data suggest that the slump in demand this year continued into November, weighing on Asian distillate markets that have been under pressure from high Japanese winter kerosene stocks.
Oil demand rose by 0.9 percent in October, the first increase in six months, thanks to a pick-up in gasoline demand after pump prices fell sharply from record highs.
But overall this year has been marked by significantly weaker fuel demand, including a drop in September to the lowest monthly sales since September 1991.
Reuters calculations showed that kerosene sales dropped by 3.2 percent over the past four weeks to 2.5 million kl (about 560,000 barrels per day) due to mild weather that limited homeowners demand for the heating fuel.
In October sales slumped 6.8 percent to 1.27 million kl (258,000 bpd), the lowest level for any October since 1972 as mild conditions limited use by homeowners, according to METI.
The calculations also showed that sales of gasoline, which make up about a fifth of fuel use, fell 1.8 percent in the four weeks from a year earlier to 4.45 million kl (1 million bpd).
The decline would be a reversal from a 4.4 percent year-on-year rise in October.
The data also suggested an 8.4 percent fall in crude imports.
((Reporting by Osamu Tsukimori; Reuters Messaging: osamu.tsukimori.reuters.com@reuters.net; +81-3-3432-7391))
My suspicion is that Japan can reduce the amount of oil that it uses rather quickly, and with minimal affect on society.
Yeah, the roads are packed on the weekends, but that doesn't mean a lot of people are driving. Tokyo's road network has a terribly small capacity, it doesn't take much to pack them full of traffic.
I don't think Japan can reduce its oil usage much at all. There is basically no wastage.
Inside Tokyo people rarely use their car (I hardly use mine). Outside of The major cities demand is very inelastic. If you don't drive you can't go anywhere.
Almost all cars are tiny little fuel efficient things. Heck the mini looks big around here.
You could save some fuel by reducing non essential driving, but there isn't that much to cut.
Do you know how much oil I use a day? Round about zero barrels.
Don't drive. Home isn't heated. Water heated by NG. Electrcity come mainly from Nuke and NG and I use a small fraction you use a day.
So how the heck are "we" going to cut our oil usage by 25%?
I know exactly how much you use.
Stop fucking around.
Don't think geothermal is fully exploited, and the lack of a national grid makes it difficult to tap the wind power potential of places like tohoku / hokkaido.
These seem like minor changes to the Japan energy mix compared to the horror that american society faces.
Good to see some more discussion of japan here.
Maybe you have some numbers on this, but my thinking was driving was mostly non-discretionary. If you are outside the major cities you have to drive to get around. If you are in the cities you take the train. Heck, even the taxis are LNG.
I suppose there is some discretionary driving on the weekends, up to the ski slopes and what not, but it can't be that much.
As to rail, isn't almost all freight moved by electrified rail already? Except for the last mile. And they even outlawed truck idling for deliveries.
try getting out of Tokyo on when of the days when the roads are cheaper for trucking
Couldn't tell you. I almost never drive. Tried driving last weekend and instantly regretted it. yuck.
BTW where are you at? I'm in Kanagawa.
I'll spent sometime looking for non-discretionary / discretionary numbers, but it'll be painful.
Also in kanagawa-ken, denentoshi line.
Noone is getting the sack!
Sorry.
Yeah, me too.
Whispers.
The French tipped us off. Which is weird. Cuz the French never do us any favors.
(How do you spell wierd?)
This is a shocker of an excercise.
Theoretical weak link.
Tell the Libyans track 5 'Mein' Deftones latest.
So here's my question...
Thank you for your concern.
Me neither.
Bad move.
'The Idiot'
What do you know that I don't
I dunno
Let them drop some oneliners
They can't
They are not poets but they wish they were
yes but they wish they were aggh they are lazy that is how we fish them out
they cant complete lines they are fucktards
watch this
see what I say
neither smekhovo nor hagens could possibly sneak in
this is impervious barbed wire
I'll show you why shortly
You can't. We developed this method.
Don't worry about it. Only the two of us care, if that many.
BTW I'm on the Odakyu sen.
I'm torn on Japan. I can't decide if its the best place to be in the event of a crash or one of the worst.
The economy is tied to producing consumer goods (my job certainly is) and in a depression will take a huge hit. Not to mention the huge energy imports.
Yet we have so much electrified rail, and most of the food is produced in Japan.
My life boat is in the States. I just wonder if abandoning Japan for the US is a good idea or bad.
Man, I really hate PO :-(
You can't get much more energy efficient than that.
The big thing now is to build a new house that has insulation! Up till recently homes have had 0 insulation. I live in a realativly new apartment building (15 years old) and I can feel the wind blow through my walls in spots! And no, its not a slum, that's just how they build them here.
One thing I don't know and really would like to know is how we get our electricity. Is it nuke, oil or LNG?
But since Japanese homes used tiny amounts of electricity (you should see the size of my fridge!) you can't save much oil here even if the elec plants were oil fired.
As to PV's, if they are popular they are hard to see. I don't see them around much at all.
http://www.cslforum.org/japan.htm has numbers on power generation.
Out in the suburbs there are quite a few house with PV. And i see new houses with solar water heaters and PV.
Too bad they don't break elec production down past "conventional thermal." I wonder how much of that is NG and how much of that is oil.
I was shocked at the coal numbers.
But this really got me
Japan is presently the world's fourth-greatest energy consumer
Where the heck does all the energy go?
http://www.enecho.meti.go.jp/english/energy/japan/supply.html
I'd guess a lot of that energy is used to being the second largest economy in the world. And you only have to look around tokyo at night, or feel the summer/winter air conditioning in offices, etc. to get some idea of what might be being used.
Also, i don't think it's safe to extrapolate based energy usage for a country based on the personal experiences of a couple of gaijin in tokyo ;-)
And you only have to look around tokyo at night, or feel the summer/winter air conditioning in offices, etc. to get some idea of what might be being used.
I don't know about your office but mine buys into that cool biz crap. Hot as nuts in the summer and cold in the winter.
And as for the night lights, Shinjuku, shibuya and ginza are relativly small areas. Ever been up Tokyo tower? Most of the city is dark at night except for a few bright spots. And all those lights are fluresant anyway.
I'd guess a lot of that energy is used to being the second largest economy in the world
Yeah. I should break it down by captia. Still can't believe Japan uses than much energy. crazy. Really brings home the idea that modern lifestyle is completly unsustainable. Japanese are misers compared to Americans when it comes to energy usage, and yet still use so much. Makes you wonder what really is sustainable. Guess we'll find out in soon enough.
Also, i don't think it's safe to extrapolate based energy usage for a country based on the personal experiences of a couple of gaijin in tokyo ;-)
Yeah, you're proberbly right.
Best Hopes for Appliance efficiency :-)
Alan
Now I understand the oil market dynamics are different, being a global market and all. But we do seem to be heading to a juncture where the dynamics will have to resolve the apparent discrepancies. We'll have to either get a rise in production or some kind of demand destruction through a global economic slowdown. Or of course a combination of both. But something has to give soon, or as you mentioned the two different viewpoints will be outside the error bars.
Tony
And I hope the article containing a quantitative analysis of this trend will be written soon! I am looking forward to it.
According to EIA, US domestic oil consumption growth was slightly negative last year, though it is rebounding this year.
In my opinion there are three major intial points of demand destruction.
1.) Poor Countries.
2.) General Economic slow down or recession.
3.) Low grade products of the oil industry bunker fuel/Asphalt/fuel oil for generators.
All of these can be looked at to discern trends in oil usage.
The key factor will in my opinion real shortages of oil or oil based products.
We are seeing shortages/demand destruction in both poor countries and worldwide for asphalt. The bunker fuel market is very very tight with any hiccup resulting in shortages.
All my first hand interactions wtih mainland Chinese, including a former girlfriend, lead me to believe that any portrayal of lifestyles of common Chinese being similar to the average American are just wrong.
Given the population of China, it would be easy to find 10 or 20 million Chinese who indeed live (materially) in a fashion with which Americans could identify, but that would only be 1 or 2% of the entire Chinese population!
There is a real disconnect between perceptions (by North Americans) of what the East is like, and the reality on the ground. Even the average Japanese, South Korean, or Taiwanese live physically more modest lives than the average citizen of the US or Canada.
Thank you for the response. I guess my point was that the show made the titles about growth in China a little more understood. I agree with you that I probably have no real understanding of the 'norm' in China nor will I short of traveling there. But even if 1-5% do live as we do or are trying to live as we do, it still equals a large number and a large requirement for resources.
Even if only 1 out of 10 Chinese ever own material possessions equivalent to the average Arkansas trailer-park tenant, that is the equivalent of 130 million beat up Ford pickups with 130 million add-on CD players playing 130 million copies of Elvis' Blue Hawaii CD. The other 9 out of 10 are still riding bicycles (if lucky, else they walk) and living in huts. And those 9 will want what the other 1 has. OK, I've stereotyped and hyperboled, but that 10% figure is about right when we are talking about the percentage of people who are "making it" so to speak.
The numbers don't lend themselves well to the easy-to-intuit problem solving methods that so often are found in mass market publications or politician's statements. There is no easy answer to the masses of Asia who would like to modernize their lives, and by modernize I mean such basics your own (private) shower and bathroom, medicines that Westerners take for granted, any type of computation device, and of course a powered means of transportion (automobile.)
I live in Japan - it is a fairly modern society (materially anyway.) Yet even in my very average neighborhood there are many families living in 4 room flats, many people who don't own automobiles, and very many single individuals who live in apartments of approximately 15 square meters in size. It is a very modest but workable lifestyle.
Even if the goal was to bring every Chinese and Indian's living arrangements only to the modest Japanese space/building standards, that would likely consume all the world's construction material for many years (I've not done the calculations but I bet it is true.) And to maintain and enable that lifestyle would require energy supplies far exceeding what is available.
I doubt any North American (US, Canada), who hasn't travelled, really could get a feel for the difference, and probably doesn't appreciate how great the change was wrought by the industrial revolution in their own country.
But as far as we can tell what will keep the Chinese from living the dream anytime soon is public health. As it is their power plants and industrial facilities are poisoning them. They won't be able to add cars to that mix unless they are willing to reduce their life expectancy by a very serious amount. And since long life is one of the most desirable features for the Chinese, there might be hope.
Mercedes sedans to be built in Beijing
and that is dated in summer of 2005. with 64,000 vehicles sold in 2004.
What counts is that the distribution in China is very skewed and while it unwinds to a more equal status, the average will go up a lot. We will probably see the opposite in the US, where the scissors are opening and the general trend seems to have been down for many people and up for far fewer. But I might be wrong about that.
Japan, Europe etc. are in my own view (with practical experience only with Europe) more cases of "doing more with less". One can only imagine what the US COULD DO if it were as well structured as those countries. It might never come to that... instead all the possible gains will have to be used to prevent us from slipping.
Can't you just allow people a little freedom of choice, instead of using USA as a measure of prosperity? I can only imagine if you ask people in Sweden or Netherlands "do you want to live like the US" what the answer would be. On what basis should China be trying to "imitate" USA, and not Netherlands for example? I think that people in China simply want to live better, like all normal human beings. They are finding their own ways and IMO some of their ways are better than US - at least they are not building endless suburbs.
P.S. I apologize if the similarity you were finding was based on the "stuff" you saw in the houses... Most likely this is because it is produced in the same factories :)
Thank you for the response. My apologies if I came across as the 'bad American'. I have lived around the world and done a fair amount of traveling. So it is never my intention to come across as such.
I'm not quite sure though what in my statement made you upset. Maybe instead of the 'US' lifestyle, would 'Western' or 'Consumer' or 'Middle class Chinese' been better?
My only point was that I saw people build huge high cities, and suburbs (yes the one person was living in a suburb with a British looking house), had interiors to their homes and offices that looked no different than mine. I was not advocating it but merely making an observation that what must be happening if even a fraction of the people there are trying to live like those that I saw.
Yes, China is working on achieving Western standards, as much as any developing country. I don't see anything new, abnormal or strange here. It's a fact. Much like Europeans are rattling about their energy dependance form Russia, and the russian energy minister told them - well, this is the reality, try to learn living with it.
And, of course the consequences for the whole world will be harsh. At some point there will simply be not enough for all of us, if we continue things as usual.
What upset me about your post (and apologise if I'm wrong) is that hardly hidden tone of denial - to a great extent and for obvious reasons the West is denying the right of the East to grow the way it has. That's what I'm afraid of. Just like in the case with Russia, this path will lead us to the situation where every country or economic block will be pulling the carpet towards itself and blaming the others, while we need exactly the opposite to get out of this - cooperation. Sorry again if I got you wrong.
While China, like Canada, is a vast land, its wealth is unevenly distributed. While Canada has its population spread along the border within 150 miles of the US, China's prosperity looks like a T-bone, spread along the east coast and up the Yangtze.
I too have talked to the "common people." I have talked to an old man in western China who shares a 12x12 room with his sister and mother, the only decoration on the wall a cross, the toilet a slit in a concrete block over a cess pool out in the elements.
I've talked with two old pensioned off, maimed and crippled veterans of Mao's '50s campain who live together in a tiny dark hovel with no electricity.
I've seen wheat spread across the road so that passing feet, bicycles, and scooters will seperate the chafe before milling by the baker who will use it to make noodles.
I've walked gingerly across mothers and babies sleeping on the floor of a train late at night and experienced the deep embarrassment of being forced to take the seat of an unfortunate soul because others wanted to talk to me, the only westerner many of them had ever seen in person.
I've chatted with a Chinese-Tibetan munk, in the small room which he shares with two young acolytes, a single bare light bulb hanging from the ceiling the only acknowledgement of modernism; it won't be missed.
On horseback, I've greeted a man riding his horse on a narrow muddy mountain trail, his three wives and a dozen or more children walking behind, all wearing traditional costume, the nearest electrical outlet miles away in the valley.
I've seen the ecological and cultural destruction and human displacement due to the Three Gorges Dam. The last remnants of human occupation before the flood looking strangely Orwellian. Perhaps all for naught as the Yangtze is weakening, due perhaps to global climate change.
I've seen the shanty towns, completely off the grid, along the railroad right of way on the outskirts of Beijing and other large cities. They tend their gardens and trade amongst themselves. Many of these people come from the country in the off season looking for work in factories. Some never return to the country.
And I've seen the mass destruction of the hutongs in Beijing, ancient villages of narrow winding streets, and its associated way of life in preparation for the 2008 Olympics, simply because they are a "national embarrassment."
Shanghai looks like a strange cross between Las Vegas and NYC, complete with eight lane highways. But even there you can still find small, if disappearing, pockets of the old lifestyle, the hutongs. They will pass into history soon.
Beijing is sprouting western style suburbs of McMansions and has a growing obesity problem that is virtually absent in western China where the bicycle still reigns supreme.
It is interesting that some segments of Chinese society want to be just like us in the "west." They seem to admire everything we say and do. They dream of wealth. In Beijing there isn't a single western popular book or magazine that isn't available in Chinese. Not to mention KFC, McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Hard Rock Cafe, and Starbucks. How did it come to pass that a "communist" nation is willing to pay US$6.00 for a latte when so much of the population earns less than $1.00 a day.
If peak oil threatens western civilization, it will surely devastate the east coast of China. They, too, live in a technological trap. But a significant portion of China still lives in centuries past and may hardly notice the passing of western civilization. They may die of thirst thanks to dying rivers and bungled irrigation projects, but they won't starve. They know how to live off the grid. Many of them have never experienced the grid.
I have not seen the Discovery Channel segments you mention. But it is a shame that the Discovery Channel may have dedicated five segments to people who are becoming just like us. It is the people who are not just like us whom we need to discover and talk to if we are to learn how to live with the consequences of peak oil.
John McFadden
Ottawa, Ontario
Thank you for the great response. I have traveled enough to cover much of the Middle East and Europe. Asia is my next hopeful journey. I would love to have some of those experiences you mentioned.
Once while hitchiking and backpacking my way around Scandinavia I was helped out by a Hungarian who had migrated to Sweden. He spoke no English and I only spoke English, but somehow we managed to have a conversation as we walked and he showed me the route I needed to take to get to a destination. Those are the great memories I enjoy.
One should probably add that China is going to be hit by a second problem thirty to fourty years from now: stopping the population explosion came at the expense of limiting the number of children which are now getting into the workforce. When they start retirement, there will be very few to support them. It will be just as challenging for the nation to make up for that shortfall as it is in Europe and the US. The US has immigration to make up for it and plenty of space to grow into. Europe is already struggling.
Isn't China using 7mm/d plus r/p imports for everything?
And yes, attributing all this demand to cars is yet another instance of transference of the context of what one knows to what one doesn't know. Transportation of all kinds in China accounts for only 36% of oil consumption, and personal cars (there are many non-personal cars) for only a few percent (it was 3% in 2003--it's probably closer to 5 or 6% now).
Last Monday, a couple of smart guys published an article in the Financial Times that really incensed me. Briefly, they were comparing the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India and China) and claimed that Russia will collapse again because their oil production will decline. I sent a letter to the FT which got published and here it is:
The article that made me do it is here:
Sorry about the length of this, everything is behind the pay-wall
China's growth is almost entirely export-led. It depends on other nations buying the stuff that China makes for export.
This has worked because other nations are happy to export jobs and import stuff. At least until the next inevitable recession, or worse, depression.
What happens to China's growth when this occurs?
Simple. It stops. They have not matured an internal market yet, so they are just as much at risk as the US and Western developed nations are from a recession. The upside of globalisation is cheap barbeque sets and patio furniture and ipods. The downside is everybody gets burnt.
Dont worry about China.(Or should that be Worry about China?) She came to the oil party last, and all the best wine has already been drunk. She may have a booming economy now, but woe betide the day when it collapses and 500 million upper and middle class Chinese realise they are not going to make it to a Californian lifestyle after all. They will be pretty pissed off, argumentative and equipped with the organisational skills to mobilise the masses. It may take more than a cultural revolution this time.
Remember: It was the middle classes that fomented revolution in France, Europe in 1848 and Czarist Russia.
And look at the collapse of the Hohenzollerns in 1918: sure military set backs had a lot to do with it, but eating sawdust and turnip bread had a fair amount to do with it. Add Spanish flu (soon to be Avian Flu?)in to the mix and Empires can collapse.
In short, China just might not make it in time
Does history repeate itself? or does it just rhyme?
His conclusion: growth is determined by: "growth in the supply of labor and the part due to an increase in the value of goods produced by the average worker."
Translation: Southeast Asia grew because people moved in from the farms (the countries industrialized) and worked in factories, while the farms become more efficent because they bought mechanized equipment (previously farming in Southeast Asia was more like "gardening.")
The fast rate of growth stops when this urbanization and industrialization stops -- when the percentage of rural population reaches around 10-30% of the total population. Then the economy grows in line with overall productivity gains.
China STILL after double didgit gdp growth since 1977 has about 70% of its population living in rural areas. Urbanization in China has a long way to go.
What was revolutionary about Krugman's article was that it looked at gdp growth as growth in production. Most economists had looked at gdp growth as growth in consumption. But in reality gross domestic product should equal gross domestic consumption (and should also equal gross domestic income). Probably looking at production is the best way (vs consumption and income) to predict how fast an economy grows.
China does it the other way round... first they satisfy international demand and then they make products for their own market. I believe we are seeing a transition from the first phase of Chinese economics to the second. The second phase will last a very long time. It will take one or two more generations to pull everyone out of their peasant existence and give them an education.
To say the US's economy is much larger now than in 1950 because "we consume much more" is technically correct, but not very descriptive.
Thats the hard part about China growing an internal market.
BTW: Error in my first post: 50 million, not 500 million.
You could add another 100 million industrialised working class to that figure, but the 100, 200, 300 million is actually neither here nor there.
The bulk of the Chinese population is still agrarian.
The energy required to grow an internal market for advanced goods and services will require a massive uplift in available energy to free up labour to work in factories, to permit additional electricity to drive consumer goods, to multiply agricultural output using energy dense fertilisers and mechanisation. Bouyant internal markets require money, and money is just another way of defining Energy.
I feel sorry for China.
It has made it for nearly three thousand years, just getting by, minding its own business emphasising something other than disposible material wealth. And, in the last 60 years it has learned to swallow the western industrialised perpetual growth / export model. And right at the time that the growth driver is peaking.
As I said earlier. She arrived at the end of the party when all the best wine was drunk. Will she pick up the tab?
Such a shame. It may be the undoing of the Middle Kingdom
Seriously. This is potentially tragic for the Chinese. They signed up to a way that has no future, despite steering its own course for so long. They dumped sustainable agriculture in the 60's for Hydrocarbon agriculture, ok, so China had population culls from famine in the last two millenia, but these will be nothing like the famines of the future now that soil and water are degraded and oil and gas is due to become scarecer and more expensive.
But we will get hit too: ASDA (a subsidiary of WallMart , here in the UK) is currently piled high with toys, jew-jaws, doo hickeys and assorted crap. - All for a Christmas Buying frenzy. It is all made in China.
Racks of Shirts, dresses, shoes, trainers, etc.
When the US and Europe go into recession (an inevitable condition of the business cycle), China will tank as well.
Take cheap oil out of the equation, and the shirts,dresses and shoes no longer arrive.
Trouble is: we dont make shirts, dresses and shoes any more do we we? - Shudder to think: we dont make syringes, poly masks, rubber gloves and disposible surgical equipment any more.
The Globalists of Harvard, Yale and The LSE have a lot to answer for in a world that is neither flat or small - without cheap oil...
I have not read Tainter, Having visited this site often enough over two years, I dont think I need to...
But all of the above is Collapse of Complex Societies 101.
You dont need a Masters from Harvard to sus this out.
Guest article?
The comming lack of cheap fuel is another problem that effects both markets.
But the export, especially to oil producing countries can of course be used to buy oil. This do not explain why the export to USA is very large. What do they buy from you besides dollars?
Russia's economy was, ironically, saved by the 1998 rouble collapse and debt default. It revived domestic producers who couldn't compete with the flood of imports. The 10% GDP increase in 2000 contradicts the oil revenue "theory" and shows it for the pile of steaming crap that it is. Also, it is only in the last two years that the Russian government has succeeded in applying the law and stopped the funneling of oil revenues into offshore banks. Instead of having a net outflow of over 24 billion US every year the country now has a net inflow of more than 20 billion US.
Russia is a case study in the failure of monetarist economic theory. It opened itself up to free trade when its domestic industry was weak and unprepared for foreign competition and it payed the price. Japan, USA, UK and all of the other leading world economies were all protectionist when they were developing. After 1998, the currency devaluation in Russia imposed a de facto protectionist barrier on imports. The oil price helped after 2002 but cannot account for the recovery that started by the middle of 1999. Industrial growth was 12% for 1999.
The "demand" figures you see reported in the meantime are all derived, either as "apparent consumption" (crude production + net oil imports) or "apparent demand" (refinery runs + net product imports).
Do you modern day doomsday pessimists feel the need to censor thought that doesn't follow the party line??
This is not an open thread. Posts such as yours should go in the open threads (DrumBeats).
Indeed, the article you posted was already posted today (by me). There was already a fairly long discussion of it in today's DrumBeat.
So, chinese imports doubled in four years to 05, or 20%/year, and 06 eight month data shows maybe 22% net all products. This happened as chinese production grew, imports will go up faster when chinese production stagnates/declines soon.
We import maybe 5x what the chinese do, but this ratio is declining fast.
Question, how many house holds us paper towels instead of wash clothes? Remember the days when OUR parents used them? today we use convenience as the excuse to purchase kleenex, and bounce, then toss them into the landfill site. China's water, energy, landfills are going to pay for this throw away society.
Its tough to say what will collapse first, energy or other countries natural resource policies. We send them orders via Fax or email to manufacture goods to be shipped to N.A. There is nothing going back there to supply the factories, additionally, the USGS says there is only 22yrs left of copper in the worlds mines.
Regards;
Oilcan
And, I guess, if our parents didn't die from dirty towels, neither will we. Inconvenience is more defined by upbringing than by absolutes relating to survival.
Enough of that rant. Seriously, take a trip to Mexico if you would like to see how to get by on very little. And then, take WT's good advice to heart!
Economise-learn to get by on 50% of your income and use the money to pay off your debts and save
Localise-patronise your neighbors, buy local produc
Produce-learn something that actually produces a product, learn to garden
And, turn off that fucking TV! Its eating your brain!
As Borat would say,"Wawaweeweh!"
The mysterious they. Your spooky bosses. You're going to dump me, aren't you. C'mon, let's go have lunch. Talk about it. Red flag. Classified. Starting to rhyme. Can never spell ryhmne.
New tech is always coming along. There is a new mining operation starting up soon on MN's iron range, using a new technique. They will take useless ore on the site of a closed down taconite plant and turn it into Copper, Gold, nickle etc.
For details look up http://www.polymetmining.com/s/Home.asp