BP's Deepwater Oil Spill - Preparing to Move - and Open Thread

This thread is being closed. Please comment on http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6915.

Update, 6:00pm Thursday: The cap was removed from the well late Thursday afternoon. The next step will be removing the blow-out preventer, which is considered forensic evidence.

The annotations to the ROV feeds from BP are becoming a little more descriptive, particularly with those related to the Q4000, which will be playing a significant part in the replacement of the blowout preventer (BOP) on the Deepwater Horizon well. However, at 9 pm on the 1st, with the waves still a little higher than desired, the activity has yet to start.

One of the new camera feeds that is being displayed is a weight indicator on the deck of the Q4000. This is not yet on line, but Admiral Allen pointed out on Wednesday the loads that will come onto the vessel.

We anticipate removing the blowout preventer with the latching mechanism that will be attached to a drill pipe string that will be suspended from the Q4000. . . . . . .

The combined weight of the drill string, the latching mechanism and the blowout preventer itself is approximately a million pounds. When they released that blowout preventer from the well it will be suspended at about 5000 feet below the surface.

There are two things we’re concerned about when this occurs, number one is the wave height. You can imagine the Q4000 riding up and down on the waves. When they ride up it exerts more dynamic loading on that pipe system. So we’re concerned about the weight and the ability of the pipe system to handle that.

Before the BOP itself is removed, the capping stack has to be taken off. The latching mechanism to attach to that is already down underwater, and is being monitored by the Enterpise, through ROV2. The stack will come off first, and it is that activity which is now expected to start at noon on Thursday.

Once the Q4000 latches onto the original BOP, it is going to raise it up, through the platform of the vessel, and then set it back down on that deck. There are two additional static cameras on the Q4000 which are monitoring the moon pool, and which are presumably going to be carrying all this activity starting Thursday and running perhaps 36 hours, depending on the weather and how easily the BOP assembly breaks away from the well.

As soon as the Q4000 has the BOP on board, it has to move out of the way (and trans-ship the parts of the BOP, once separated to smaller ships to be sent ashore) so that the new BOP can be put in place.

This is the task for Development Driller 2, but before the job is finished the BOP has to be thoroughly tested to ensure that everything is now functional, the BOP will then be ready for the final stages. At this point it will be possible to restart the relief well to complete the bottom kill. That is still not anticipated to start until after Labor Day.

I am going to insert the quote on what the Admiral said on hydrates it its entirety, since I am not sure exactly what his point was.

Hello, Admiral. Can you tell me how the current BOP is attached to the well head and if there’s any concern about hydrates or other (inaudible) that might make it difficult to latch?

Thad Allen: Well, the current BOP is attached to the wellhead with the same connector they would use for any similar drilling well. To the extent that hydrates are there, we don’t expect that to be a problem right now. Had we continued to try and fish and get the pipe out of there, there was some concerns that hydrates would be blocking our ability to use a camera and actually operate down there. So I’m not sure that’s an issue. If there’s an issue at all, it’s probably the issue of the condition of the wellhead itself. When the Deepwater Horizon exploded and sank it bent the riser pipe over and ultimately the riser pipe was severed from the drill rig. At that point, if you can imagine, as massive as the blowout preventer was and that wellhead was, it probably bent over to some extent and then when the riser pipe separated from the rig it popped back up. It did not pop straight back up and there’s been some attempt to level that, to make sure we could get that as close to vertical as we can. I believe the current estimate right now, it is about two degrees off center line. So as we go in to pull the blow out preventer out, I would say hydrates are not a real big concern. I think the alignment to the true vertical about two degrees off would impact somehow to a very small degree the pull on the BOP as you’re trying to free it. We are aware of it. The engineers have taken that into account. We don’t think it will be a prohibiting condition, but it is something we are aware of.

In the other story that I have been watching, that of the miners in Chile, the equipment has started, and the preliminary drilling of the central shaft is now down more that 20 m. At the same time the rescuers are considering ways of reaming one of the smaller drill holes that have already reached the area. This might take a greater number of stages to get the hole out to the required size, but could, in total, be faster than the two-stage operation that is currently in progress. In either case, moving the muck from the bottom of the excavation with wheelbarrows, and ensuring that none of it gets stuck as it falls from the machine, are both concerns that will have to be addressed as the work moves forward.

Observation from the #theoildrum IRC

Measurement instruments and their data transferring Compatts were removed from the capping stack. Pressure from the valves of the kill and choke line of the capping stack was released. Some hydraulic lines to the Hydraulic Distribution System on the seafloor were renewed and tested. They will be needed for the disconnect procedures. ROVs from the Discoverer Enterprise rechecked its riser and connector that will be used to lift the capping stack. Mission statement visible in some ROV displays is "Capping Stack Removal Ops".

Over night several new tools including a heavy grinder/cutter were lowered to the seafloor.

The skimmer ship Southern Responder and six of her sister ships are again on stand by some five miles north of the Macondo site.

Average wave height at the BP Thunderhorse platform some 25 miles south of Macondo is now 4.5 feet after having reached a peak of 6.2 feet yesterday afternoon (CDT). Visuals from the surface show a blue sky and only little wind.

Four new video feeds were provided by BP.

1. The the Q-4000 derrick hookload indicator is measuring in kilopounds and is showing the weight of the drillstring and its attachments hanging from the Q-4000 at currently 287 kilopounds. Thadmiral said in yesterday's press conference: "The combined weight of the drill string, the latching mechanism and the blowout preventer itself is approximately a million pounds."

The feed URL is: http://mfile.akamai.com/97892/live/reflector:23866.asx

2. The upper deck of the Q-4000 seen from a secondary crane with a view of the multipurpose lifting tower, its main lifting device and the sliding door deck above the 39 ft x 22 ft moon pool through which the old BOP will, hopefully, rise. The lifting tower can handle 600 MT (661.4 tons, 1.322 million lbs). Yellow-brown skid rails can be seen that lead from the derrick workspace to the right of the picture. They will be used to move the BOP aside. For more information on the Q-4000 see its data sheet (PDF).

For orientation: The camera is fitted to the white crane on the lower right of this overview pic and is pointing to the tall white multipurpose lifting tower.

The feed URL is: http://mfile.akamai.com/97892/live/reflector:22506.asx

3. A view of the moon pool below the deck of the Q-4000. The rusty column right in front of the camera seems to be the drill pipe.

The feed URL is: http://mfile.akamai.com/97892/live/reflector:58061.asx

4. A so far unknown feed was tested yesterday but is currently not active.
The feed URL is: http://mfile.akamai.com/97892/live/reflector:47143.asx

The new feeds are now include in the browser crashing BP feed page as well as in the low resource once-a-minute-update feed site bp.schmorp.de.

- A crab threatening a ROV

- ROV thoughts while doing a difficult job (as imagined by RockyP) - "this thing could have killed me" - "humanoids, I tell you, they are not normal"

Thanks for answering my questions at the bottom of the last thread. And for letting me know that BP page crashes other peoples' browsers - I thought that was just a problem with my computer. Actually just recovered from it again.

Thanks for the updates.
Live feed page crashes mine as well.
It was much better when they had the list, they should know that most of their target audience have 'standard issue' computers, not 'big people' ones.
I've also wondered if it's just my video card.
Frustrating at times, but we manage...

BP video site works fine in IE8 in UK. You can right click and switch them off individually if your box is struggling. You can check bandwidth and frame rate as well in "statistics".

Something that reduced the crashes drastically for me was to cut back on the "hardware acceleration" setting in the Windows display driver. In Windows XP that setting shows up in the "troubleshooting" panel in the display properties control.

The videos seem to hog up memory. One fix is to close and restart the browser when it starts to get a bit slow.


I am using bp.schmorp.de which has 1-minute-updates of all feeds. I have Firefox configured to launch the single feeds from that page as browser external VLC windows. (In Firefox: Tools->Options->Applications->asx Files->Use VLC.asx).

Thereby I have an overview of what is going on in the Schmorp page and a few VLC windows in which I can record single feeds.

That is minimal resource usage and a maximum of functionality.

FYI, if you want a more true-to-the-original image, right click the video itself, select "Options..." and uncheck video smoothing. This makes Windows Media Player just pass the video through basically untouched.


Nice to see they are going to use a set of elevators to hold onto the drill pipe (Photo #1)as I was talking about the other day. Can't believe they are using a set of straight manual elevators, those ROV roughnecks are going to have to put out.

These same elevators come in an air operated version, first you set the elevators open with the air, remove airline, run the elevators. There is a trigger, once the pipe hits the back of the elevators, it triggers closed. They do work under water as I have seen them used for the purpose before. Much easier than trying to muscle them closed, though I see they have built in some mechanical advantage.


To better understand the Q-4000 feed here is a short time-lapse video of the Q-4000 lowering its drill pipe stand by stand.

Dumb question: Why are they using drill pipe to haul up the BOP? I should think they'd use some kind of superstrong cable.

A million+ pounds would require at least one block-and-tackle loop, so you would need a minimum of 10,000 feet of such cable. That would mean a huge drum, hard to handle, very costly, etc. We had 2" cable at the coal mine, and that stuff was absolutely miserable to do anything with.

Thanks MoonofA for the video, very helpful to us outsiders.

Hello Toolpush,

Could they have some other plan for those elevators? I don’t know what else they could do with them but hold onto a pipe joint. All I have ever seen them used for was to support the weight of the drill string while tripping in or out. It looks to me that the bails attached to the elevator are more like thick wire ropes than steel rods. Do you think what they show could support the weight they have in mind? Also, where are they going to find a pipe joint to latch onto?

My expectation is that they would be used after pulling the BOP itself, if they need to cut drill pipe loose below it, so the cut piece doesn't drop down the hole.


They don’t show what the bails which look like wire ropes to me are attached to. Since there is only one DP in the hole the elevators must be suspended by a long cable. My guess is that 3000’ of DP would be too heavy to support safely with a long cable and bails made out of cable. However, I’m sure they have a plan that we are just guessing about right now.

Good points, but, while I haven't heard it mentioned I wondered whether they would be able to attach it to to the drill pipe, then lower the BOP until the unit rested on top of the well, then cut off the drill pipe, remove the BOP out of the way, then go in with a drill pipe and fish to pull it out.

Right now there is no DP to attach elevators to. When they pull the old bop if there is any DP to cut off that means that at some point they will have to thread it through the new bop. I think that implies that the DP must be supported below the cut first. I proposed in another thread using a slotted steel plate, split rotary bushing, and mechanical slips to support it from the well head. If they had maybe two joints above the well head then they would have something to grab hold of with elevators once they got the new bop installed.

Won't they remove the pipe - if possible - before lowering the new BOP?

That is what I would do, but I believe they wanted the new bop in place first. I could be wrong about that. I don't see any problem slowly pulling the DP all the way out with no riser assuming they can keep sufficient overbalance at all times. On a land rig you can see the top of the mud in the riser from the drill floor. At Macondo it is essentially the same except for two things. First, sea water exerts a lot of containment pressure. Second, and unfortunately, there would be no bop at all if anything went wrong.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear what I was proposing (my excuse is that I was trying for some of that brevity that others have commended to my consideration).

When they lift the BOP clear of the well, if the drill pipe is still attached, then they could attach the elevator below however many joints they wanted, lower the BOP until the elevator gripping the pipe is resting on the wellhead, then cut the pipe, recover the BOP, then recover the drill pipe with a fish.

Ok, I think we are pretty much on the same page. I'm pretty sure the elevators are hanging from cables which will not support the weight of the DP. I think you are correct. They will pull up two joints (or whatever is longer than the new bop) so that the top of a joint is above the wellhead, put the elevators under that pipe joint, and lower the entire thing down until the elevators and suspended DP rest on the wellhead. They still have to remove the elevators before they can attach the new bop. I belive that is why they have to thread the DP through the new bop. If they plan to install the new bop immediately, I don't see them doing any fishing at all.

Except perhaps that the elevator will then be in the way?

Right. I imagine that once they had the DP threaded through they could close the pipe rams and donut thing (all I know it by is the Hydril)to support it. Then they could lift it up enough to remove the elevators. I'm getting better with my economy of words too.

Karma / Dave,

The elevators that are being lowered will only be used if there is the 3500ft of drill pipe hanging from the the BOP and they need to cut it. The BOP itself will be pulled with a H4 connector running tool which is also hanging around down there.

Varco GG 350 ton elevators are normally used on bales attached to the travelling block, as can be scene in the Q4000 video. It is not uncommon to use them on long slings if elevators are required below the rotary table but in dry air. Using elevators under water is not a normal proceedure, but is one of those ideas you keep up your sleeve when the unusual happens. The thing about fishing jobs, is that when the professionial tools stop working the fun begins with something that will do the job.

These elevators will be hanging from 2 slings, which will be shackled to a padeye sub screwed to drill pipe back to the rig. They may have a swivel in the rig up, but this becomes a failure point, so they may not have one.

It is possible to pull the BOP by lowering drill pipe into the BOP with a Elephants Foot attached and closing a set of pipe rams. That is not what they are doing here, this is just a back up plan for the suspended dril pipe.

To pull the 3500ft of 5 1/2" drill pipe is going to be about 45ton without cement, so the slings will be around 2" dia.

Many thanks for the excellent narrative.

No problems Syncro, but I will still blame those pesky lawyers!

They are a bit like women, can't live with them, and can't live without them

You mean they're a bit like oil wells and oil rigs!

I'll pay that!


Thanks for the very thorough reply. I’m sure glad you are around to help bring some of this into focus. I’ve been around a lot land rigs, but that was a long time ago and I never actually worked as a rig hand. I was just out there long enough to do my job and watch them do their work for a day or two at most. I do need some help to understand what is going on.

The elevators rigged with slings can lift the DP. I did not know that and was also concerned with the tight bend radius around the eyes on the elevators. There are too many vessels and pipes and cables hanging down for me to keep up with.

If the vessel that lifts the old bop has its derrick occupied with that task, where is the DP going to come from to attach to the padeye sub?

How much old DP under the bop will they have to pull in order to work the elevators around the bop so they can latch it to a pipe joint?

I’m just trying to understand the procedure since BP ain’t tellin’.

The elevators rigged with slings can lift the DP. I did not know that and was also concerned with the tight bend radius around the eyes on the elevators. There are too many vessels and pipes and cables hanging down for me to keep up with.

The elevators have a SWL of 350ton, they can lift anything upto this weight. Of course as the old saying goes, "a chain is only as stong as its weakest link", therefore when using slings on the elevators, the SWL of the slings will most likely be the weak point.

1 5/8" 6 x36 IWRC EIP rope has a breaking strain of 119 ton, therefore a 5:1 safty factor = 23.8 ton / sling. 2 x slings = 47 ton - a little for the included angle.
Drill string = approx 43ton
Therefore this is the minimum size wire they could use, remember the pipe may have some overpull due to being cemented to the wall of the casing. So we would need some extra safety. 2" wire sounds good to me. You could go for harder wire, Extra extra improved plow shear steel (EEIP) (I love that name, it must have a history)

FYI, Slings have eyes, elevators have ears, and drillers shout.

If the vessel that lifts the old bop has its derrick occupied with that task, where is the DP going to come from to attach to the padeye sub?

Q4000, current running in hole with elevator and drill pipe as per Moons video, the Q4000 has what they call a laydown derrick, where the stands are racked horizontal on deck.
DW Enterprise I believe will pull the capping stack
Q4000, Pull drillpipe, and lay out on deck in when recovered.
Q4000, Latch and pull DWH BOP, store onboard under arrest.
DDII, Run new BOP.
Anybody please correct me if I have this wrong.

How much old DP under the bop will they have to pull in order to work the elevators around the bop so they can latch it to a pipe joint?

I think the best answer would be, How long are the slings that they attached? No advantage in pulling the BOP any higher the length of the slings fitted, but as a WAG, I would say a double of pipe, 60ft.

I’m just trying to understand the procedure since BP ain’t tellin’.

From BP's "fragile pipe comment", I think they believe the pipe may not be there, but they need to have a plan just incase it is! Hopefully we will all be enlightened in a few days, rather than having to second guess.

Excellent! The light is beginning to come on after this post.

You could go for harder wire, Extra extra improved plow shear steel (EEIP)

I suppose the 1 5/8" rope is at best fair to middling. That 2" is a differnt story and probably fine to good. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_'fair_to_middlin'_mean.

Slings have eyes, elevators have ears....

That's a funny one. Did you know that towboats push their loads? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towboat.

Q4000, Pull drillpipe, and lay out on deck in when recovered.
Q4000, Latch and pull DWH BOP, store onboard under arrest.
DDII, Run new BOP.

The above sequence appears to mean that they must fish for the broken end of the DP and then pull it to the surface through the old bop. That is what I would do, but I thought they didn't want the well exposed to the environment any longer than necessary.


You have a point, I was expecting the DW Enterprise with its double derrick to be doing this job. It could have pulled the BOP on one drawworks and held the pipe with the other drawworks. Now with the Q4000 with only one drawworks, I am also a little confused, unless they have the elevators hanging from a deep water crane.

Just checked with the ROV page, the BOP retrievial tool is on the drill pipe from the Q4000. So if the elevators are from the Q4000, then they must be on the crane which can lift 200ton in 3000 m (10,000ft)of water. A mean crane! Maybe I should have looked at the Q4000 specs first!

Now, I hope this is the plan, but the BOP will have to be lifted to get access to the suspended drill pipe. If I am correct with the elevators on the crane, I do not know how they will handle the drillpipe on surface, unless they hand over the drill string to the Q4000 draw works after the rig has stowed the BOP off to the side.


Great stuff, MoA, thank you.

Could somebody please point to the moon pool on the upper-deck shot? Is it the rectangular area toward the bottom just left of center?

Re crab--is that what they do when they're threatened, extend all their claws to make themselves look as big as possible?

ROV thoughts--several belly laughs. Terrific work, RockyP. Please do more!

swift -- Not sure what you're looking at but the moon pool is that open area thru which equipment/drill pipe pass thru the hule os the vessel. In this case "pool" is an apt description: think of a bottomless swimming pool in the middle of the rig.

Interesting shot......looks almost like you could fall off the rig thru the "pool". I sure hope they get on this soon, we were lucky Danielle, Earle and Fiona are not headed this way, even though they can make our waters rough, but Gaston is worrying me from looking at the models.

O/T~I read your post from the other thread and added it below, and it's as redneck as you can get here too and I like it that way to be honest, so if you ever are in this area......there is bit of work I need done at a specific address, I know someone close to the perp that needs a new deck, I'm thinking chainsaw, hammers, and heck maybe even a 10# wrench might be necessary, course the deck's here at the highest point (unless in a condo) are about 36 ft in the air.....so you never know, I sure would hate for the perp to chit his pants, OK....that's a lie, I'd love it LOL. Great story, and agreed even in prison they are the lowest on the rung, and being a father a young girl I am sure you know how I feel, and what it takes to not accidentally drive the truck thru his house before he has yet another victim.

LOVE the BBM quote below:) Thanks RM

mummsie -- Yes...rather scary. You know how red neck the oil patch is and just like we hear about prison, child molesters are considered fair game. Many years ago I was on a rig where rumors were flying about one hand being investigated for molesting his step daughter. Turns out a near miss of a 10# wrench dropped from 60' off the derrick was sufficient incentive for the guy to ask to be sent in. No idea if the charges were valid or if they had actually been made. Let's just say emotions run high with red neck dads. "Justice" on a rig may not always be fair but it is swift as a rule.

The phrase "where angels fear to tread" comes to mind, but I'll stick my nose in here.

I started working in psychotherapy as a volunteer in the local Women's Center and responded to the hospital to help women, for the most part, who had been victims of either domestic violence or sexual assault. In fact, I ended up being called more often for rape calls than anything else. My opening line kind of captures the irony of the situation.

I would walk into the examining room, and say "Hi, my name is Dave, I'm from the Women's Center, and yes, I know I'm not a woman!" I would then make it clear that if they preferred to work with a woman, I would be happy to get one for them. In the hundred or so calls I made, only two or three women asked me to get a woman instead.

My first call was to help another volunteer work with a family where the boy had been sexually assaulted by a neighbor boy. I remember thinking on the drive to the hospital "I don't want to do this! I don't want to do this! ..."

Every thing went fine. I worked with the boy while his mom and the other volunteer met with the police, and learned my first great lesson. The most important way to approach that work is not to tell them what they should feel or do, but to support them in their efforts to understand what happened and what didn't happen, and help them deal with however they feel about it.

After doing that work for about five years, we realized that no matter how many victims we worked with, unless we tried to understand and help those who were generating victims to change their behaviors, we would never catch up with the supply of victims.

So, in connection with another agency. we began a program for abusive partners. That was some of the most challenging work I've ever done. In fact, I had to take a break from it for awhile to reorient my head enough so that I wouldn't try to use power and control behaviors to "control" those who were using power and control behaviors to control their partners.

I switched to the other agency, and almost the first thing, when I walked into that new job, was tapped to be the "male" presence in their treatment program for sex offenders. I've been working with that population for the last 14 years. Now you know why I'm poking my nose in here.

The concerns and fears that you have experienced and expressed are not only very common, they are natural concerns and fears. You are being confronted by a situation for which you haven't been prepared, and therefore, to which you tend to react, rather than respond. Instinctively, when we sense danger we prepare to protect ourselves. And, when it comes to experiencing a risk to our children, or other loved ones, we often are prepared to take off the gloves and do anything necessary to protect them.

Unfortunately, when we are operating with incomplete knowledge, let alone understanding, we risk doing more harm than good, and sometimes, we risk getting distracted by our need to do SOMETHING, and focusing on apparent or minimal dangers rather than the real, and very present, true dangers.

If you, or others, would like more information on these issues and how to respond to them, please feel free to email me with any questions at thiscoa@westelcom.com, or consult the US Department of Justice Center for Sex Offender Management (CSOM) at: http://www.csom.org/. They have a number of basic information documents at: http://www.csom.org/CSOMResources/documents.html.

Their information usually lags a little behind the most advanced work that is being done in the field, but it will provide a very valuable introductory insight into the issues involved and how communities can respond to them.

Four very important facets I would commend to your attention and consideration:

A reaction which is governed primarily by emotion, and especially panic, is almost always going to do more harm than good, and set the good work that is being done by so many people back more than you could imagine.

Dissemination of accurate, informed knowledge and information are the most important factors in effective individual and community responses to issues like this. Accurate, complete knowledge is power.

As with all human behavior, it is important to remember that the behavior does not define who the person is, it is only a symptom of the problems they are experiencing. Until you understand and appropriately address the true reasons for the behavior you will not be effective in reducing the truly greatest danger.

That greatest danger is not so much from the people who have been identified, apprehended, processed through the legal system, and treated (although it is true that those measures are not a guarantee of no further problems), but from the close relatives, neighbors, and respected or "invisible" members of the community who have yet to be identified as having already committed crimes against our loved ones and/or to whom our loved ones are vulnerable to the potential future danger they pose.

Communities can learn how to identify and forestall those yet to be apprehended individuals who pose that greatest threat.

I started working in psychotherapy as a volunteer in the local Women's Center and responded to the hospital to help women

And where are the centres and help for men. Psychological violence by women can be devastating too.


I'd love to have a nickel for every time I've been asked that, but it's a fair question.

Women's shelters were started by women who saw a problem and responded to the need.

We, as I suspect many other shelters do, worked also with any men who presented to us.

Since I started working with abusive people, I have worked with women who have been abusive also.

But men can start a men's shelter also, any time they believe there's a need, and before you respond with "yes, but no man is going to acknowledge that his partner is abusing him," read the rest of this.

The vast majority of people who are most dangerously abusive are male. You will be able to find studies which indicate the ratio is more like 50-50, but when you take a close look at those studies you will discover that they are based almost exclusively on self report.

That's when you have to factor in a phenomenon which I have experienced throughout my work in these fields. Women almost always take more responsibility for their partner's abusive behavior than is warranted. "I should have been a better wife to him," "I should have realized that he had a bad day," "I shouldn't have nagged him about that," "I shouldn't have complained about him never being home," "I should have kept the kids quiet," are all very common phrases you hear from them.

But when you show them a list of characteristic behaviors of abusive men their eyes grow wide, and they understand, but still usually want the relationship to work because, "I know how good and kind he CAN be," and a whole host of other reasons that all reveal how they want this to work no matter what he does, or they have to do.

Most women decide to leave 7 times before they finally succeed. Meanwhile the violence escalates, because her tolerance level for pain keeps increasing so he has to become more violent in order to feel in control of her.

Meanwhile, I haven't met an abusive male yet, after working with hundreds of them, who didn't sincerely believe that he was a victim of his partner. One man kept pounding his wife's head on the concrete floor saying "I'm doing this because I love you, I'm doing this because I love you." Then there was the man who told me he got angry with his wife, grabbed her around the throat, "because I was trying to get her attention," squeezed her neck so hard that she started to collapse, then he told me with all sincerity, "I don't know why she was so upset, she knows I wouldn't hurt her!"

And that gets down to the fundamental reason that women, and some men, need these services. People who feel as if their lives are not under control often try to find ways of feeling in control. Since they don't believe they can respond effectively or safely to those who have more power than they do, they tend to turn to those who are most available and vulnerable, their partner, their children, and their pets.

When you see or hear the phrase "domestic dispute," stop and ask yourself who has the most power in that relationship, and then ask yourself if it was likely a fair fight.

Sorry Dave~I was out of the office due to a sudden death of a co-worker's father, and I had to help out pick the kids up etc., ALSO I had no clue this was in regards to my post as I have ADD so bad I generally skip long post, but realized it was a reply and felt I needed to set things a little straight with what I FEEL......

First I will address this stmt: The concerns and fears that you have experienced and expressed are not only very common, they are natural concerns and fears. You are being confronted by a situation for which you haven't been prepared,

Sadly I DO know, and am prepared. My son was a victim of a predator at age 3 and still remembers 7 1/2 yrs later, but I'm sure all the other parents of kids who haven't been molested are prolly equally as concerned.

Although, this stmt I wholeheartedly agree and I hope most parents are the same?????

when it comes to experiencing a risk to our children, or other loved ones, we often are prepared to take off the gloves and do anything necessary to protect them.

Your stmt:Dissemination of accurate, informed knowledge and information are the most important factors in effective individual and community responses to issues like this. Accurate, complete knowledge is power

I agree, which is why after I read the record from LA, I checked 3 counties around me and found the child porn/perform and the rest at the link I posted last night. I seek knowledge all the time about what is important to me, my family and an Island full of kids on bikes, and skateboards generally off guard. I know ALL his publice records, so go that one covered.

your stmt: As with all human behavior, it is important to remember that the behavior does not define who the person is, it is only a symptom of the problems they are experiencing. Until you understand and appropriately address the true reasons for the behavior you will not be effective in reducing the truly greatest danger.

Sorry, but I beg to differ on this one, you rape a child (3 counts) who is under 10 and really it's vile at any age, then after you walk on that charge you engage in child pornography and emailing porn of kids in sexual positions, NO NEED for me to understand anything except you don't deserve the oxygen you breathe when this is your record, and according to Dr. William Murphy, at UT in Memphis, once they are over 17 yrs old, there is no way to help them and frankly a bullet in the head would suit me just fine, no way in hell will I EVER understand the behavoir of someone who rapes kids, some as young as 6 months. I don't need to be a thereapist to tell them they are fucked up beyond any help and it's NOT a symptom it's an attraction that they act upon like an animal in the wild, thus should be treated as such.

I do totally agree most offenders are familial, and ususally never identified so they don't have to register, but pls don't tell me you buy into the bullshit that a sexual predator's behavoir doesn't define who he is????????? ARE you serious? Of course it does, the one I posted about has been in trouble the as far back as I can get records, he has a desire he want's satisfied and doesn't care who it hurts/destroys etc., he only cares that he gets his rocks off at the expense of a child. Sorry but I really don't give a rat's ass about learning why some offender molest 150 3-6 yr old boys or girls and doubt most do, IMO put them in generel pop and save the taxpayers a dime, no loss to anyone except the victim who lost their spirit and soul when they were victimized.

Sorry if that sounded harsh, but I'm not into being PC, nor falling for the "let's find out what makes the perv who molested 100 kids tick". Thanks anyway

If I'm intruding, please shut me off, but, if I can be helpful, please let me know.

Meanwhile, i would urge you to ignore the separate post below because you have your hands too full right now to deal with more issues.

David E., you make the point that it's important to understand in order to address the problem, rather than understand in order to excuse the behavior, very well. Well done.

David, at the risk of being totally off-topic, I appreciate what I've read here from you, for my own personal reasons, too involved to go in to.

I don't recall that I ever properly mentioned that I appreciate your input here.

I will say this much, having seen it tangentially touched on elsewhere, not pertaining to domestic abuse, per se, but resources for men are harder to come by. My own situation is more along the lines of childhood rape, when I did try to seek help decades later, it wasn't exactly a custom fit. In any event, more than I meant to share, but I did want to mention that I've enjoyed reading what you've written here.

Now, before the self-pity party starts, on to see what else has been said about wire rope, and rigging and such.

Thank you for trusting us and taking a chance.

Finding a good therapist for these issues is very hard. Not everyone is equipped to do that kind of work.

I urge you not to give up though. It will be well worth the effort, if you demand the best.

just a comment on "justice". I've had it taken up on my behalf, to which I admit a smug sort of gratitude, and also been witness to a pretty severe criminal beating that thankfully never went outside of its intended impact. If I hadn't been there, or if I hadn't prevented things from happening, a friend for sure, and yours truly most likely, would be sittin' in jail right now, all because of a "he said-she said" thing that escalated out of control. I've had false accusations thrown at me before, so I have a bit of a "unless I see it with my own eyes" attitude. All's I'm trying to say is, be careful, before you take up against someone based on someone's word. And if you're ever involved in something like what I've seen, I don't know you.

On the upper deck beneath the hook block of the lifting tower is a movable platform. In the picture above you see people in red working dress and with white hardhats standing on it. The moon pool is beneath the platform. The platform can be moved to the lower right bottom of the picture thereby giving access from the top to the moon pool.

When the BOP comes up the moon pool will be open. When the BOP is up, the moon pool will be closed again. Then skid rails will be put on that sliding moon pool door and the BOP lowered onto the skid system. It can then be moved to the right of the picture and to be stored or dismantled there.

Rockman--Thanks, I do know what the moon pool is, just not sure where it is in that photo. From MoA's explanation--thanks MoA--I think I had it right. (Why is it called the moon pool?)

swifty - Thought you probably did. I heard they started calling it a "moon" pool after the first time a coonass crew saw one and decided to go skinny dipping. Well... that's what they told me.

Roger on the crab question, but it's not just for show. If that ROV makes the wrong move, it's in for a nasty nip.

Laundry baskets filled up with ROV undies after the humanoids dropped the spear.

wunner if that's what they plan on using those elevators for

Wow 600 metric tons of pullback! Man that's one elluva stump puller.

1 metric ton = 1.10231131 short tons

1.10231131 short tons = 2 204.62262 pounds

600 metric tons = 661.386787 short tons

661.386787 short tons = 1,322,773.57 pounds pullback

~google calculator (maths hurts my head)

The great 2-butoxyethanol hunt and the BP Oil Spill, Bryan Hamaker

Many articles have been written concerning BP's potential use of a version of Corexit (formulation EC9527A) that contains 2-butoxyethanol.

The conclusions in the articles run the gamut from realistic to the utterly ridiculous.

Attempting to finger BP for using a banned form of Corexit based on water analysis that contains 2-butoxyethanol is a legally problematic if not hopeless case....

and pretty well laid out by the author.

My interpretation of the crab: TOD's exasperated totem animal.

Snake: thanks for this excellent find.

Regarding 2-BE found in the Tampa swimming pool, if it was from the rain as according to a claim linked in yesterday's thread, then 2-BE ought to be found in every pond and swimming pool in the Tampa Bay area. But we learn from Snake's link that 2-BE in the rain would be very unlikely, even in areas where it was actually applied to the water.

Another possibility is that someone poured Windex in the pool and then collected the sample. There have been a number of such hoaxes in the wake of the spill.

2-BE is a common ingredient in household cleaners. It is quite easy to believe in unintended contamination from nearby cleaning activities.

from my hobbyist mechanics and preservation/conservation work - it's some bad-ass stuff - at high strength, no need to use solvent based degreasers anymore.

It's in all the purple-power and greased-lightning type products, though often referred to as glycol esther or butyl esther, and i know - cause i look for it specifically and with the highest percentage, so i'm always having to pull the MSDS on unfamiliar products to verify.

In the cleaning business it's referred to as just "Butyl"

I have always had a close relationship with muriatic acid. That's all CLR cleaner is. Although a little weaker.

I dislike a close relationship with muriatic acid, my preference is a rubber barrier.


I've only used muriatic acid on brick, but from what I've read about 2-BE, it sounds like it's "stickier". S2A seems to be the definitive source, though.

I have NO idea where you guys have gone with this? - Muriatic (Hydrochloric) Acid has nothing to do with 2-butoxyethanol and it's uses aren't similar.

and no idea what "S2A seems to be the definitive source" means?

and CLR contains Zero Hydrochloric/Muriatic Acid (nor does my other descaler) so be careful going on memory with your chemicals - and God Forbid you nonchalant Hydrochloric users confuse it with Hydrofluoric.

I didn't think them similar either, which is why I commented. S2A meaning the ChE PhD that usually shoots the nonsense out of the water around here.

I didn't remember (from decades ago) that muriatic was HCl, (makes sense, cleaning mortar off of brick), but I'm pretty non-nonchalant when it comes to handling chemicals, as a rule.

Thanks for the info on cleaners, I didn't know about that.

thanks for article, snake. I think that puts things in perspective, a little.

so where are those hurricanes someone was promising?

why are they avoiding the gulf?

God is a BP shareholder. He also runs the largest hedge fund; hedging Christians against Muslims.

Haven't you heard of pouring oil on troubled waters to calm them?

Some kind of weather system - a front or something was turning them is what I read. That was predicted to end and you will note that tropical depression Gaston is headed in towards the gulf.


Some kind of weather system - a front or something was turning them is what I read. That was predicted to end and you will note that tropical depression Gaston is headed in towards the gulf.


Bringing over a subthread from yesterday about lab test reports. See the contributions by chemists sunnv and Speaker to Animals.

I wanted to point out there is confusion in the subthread between two sampling results, one done by Smith Stag on the sewagey material in MS Sound, said to contain dispersant, and the other of grass, oysters etc. taken by a River Keeper. The tests by ALS Labs was of the latter. These were clearly selective samples.


As for the Pensacola Greg bashing yesterday by mommydearest, there is a lot of gratitude for what he has accomplished in this latest thread dedicated to him on GLP:


Chime in over there and smite the man down if you desire.

... along with "British Spy Found Dead May Have Murdered Matthew Simmons!" (not yet picked by PG) and "PAH, Heavy Metals, Arsenic Found in Gulf Residents Blood AND Leading Lab Questions Presence of Dispersant Chems Inland!" where "inland" turns out to be on Horn Island, about five miles offshore.

Grateful cranks.

And your point is???
IMO it's a big world out there, with a million different perspectives.
If it wasn't for GLP (which I am currently banned from because I called Trinity out on his Mexican Drug cartel beheading video experiment...) I wouldn't have found this wonderful place.
And this place will lead me to the next...
It's all good.

Aw, Hex, I'm just not a fan of scaremongering and distortion despite the positive economic impact it has for some. Anyway, "Can They Be Setting Up The Delaware Pennunisula To Be The Next Katrina?"

Another rig blows up in GOM, but hey, you didn't read it here first:

The rig is known as "Vermilion 398."

BBC reporting 13 thrown into the water.


Oh sure, anybody can report it after it happens, but what good is that? Why didn't beforeitsnews and godlikeproductions tell us about this yesterday??

My sentiments exactly SH~I don't care if GLP or nay other conspiracy theory forum helps him financially (after all the disclaimer on that site speaks for itself), it was begging for money and adding donate buttons to his pages, 4 of them IIRC. I just not into hyping any disaster for profit from naive, gullible and scared ppl, not to mention in Florida it IS illegal if you are not registered, but if a organization wants to help - even a CT organiztion, so be it, at least the everyday mom and pop who are huting already won't be hit up for donations, or at least I hope he'll take the donations buttons off now.

Earl is looking BAD, family in NC in Wrightsville Beach.....I thought I heard them say it is possible it could become a CAT 5?

Wrightsville is okay storm is recurving away from them. WE here near Hattaras-are likely to get pasted a bit. Worse for Norfolk Va should only be 40-50 mph winds, gusts to 60. The problem is going to be Long Island and Cape Cod. EARL is looking like going over USA nearer to Newport per latest info from NWS. Plus a weather front and upper low over NY means bad thunderstorms on the "safe" or west side of this storm.

Thanks JEC~I have called twice and not been able to get thru, and the chaos from the death of my friend's father 2 wks before her wedding has left me limited time, so I appreciate your response:)

Looks like we may have to possibly worry about Gaston here......gotta tell you I hate closing all the shutters, but it's a necessary evil.

mummsie aka mommy dearest

For me, my problems with GLP is an ethics and morals thing.

Hey, if people want to go to GLP for entertainment and role-playing, even to donate money for the experience, then God bless them. They can have all of the fun they want.

The trouble is, much of GLP's viewership (many ... most???) go to this site thinking it’s straight. GLP runs afoul of my own personal ethical standard by blurring the line between fact and purposeful deliberate fiction. In my world, merely having a disclaimer doesn't cut it because I know how few people pay attention to disclaimers. The vast majority entering GLP doesn’t know its role-playing and that people are deliberating making this stuff up.

There is a special circle of hell for people who prey on gullible, susceptible people with fear-mongering done for fun. The hottest corner of this special circle of hell is reserved for folks who make money from the susceptible people under the guises of "reporting." The person shearing the sheep bears a lot of the ethical responsibility. It may be legal (but it does run close to the line, IMHO) but it isn’t ethical.

As I said, to the fully-informed who wants some yucks role-playing, have fun. However, where is the responsibility for those people who come into the site who aren't in on the joke?

Exactly. As I mentioned I got banned on 2 of my 3 computers from GLP last month when I called Trinity out for posting Mexican drug cartel beheading videos. I said: 'What about the children who click on your links, there is no parental control here, no log in, no age limit' then I called him an a-hole. Instant ban. So I moved over to my other computer, said 'WTF banning someone for calling you on your shit?' Banned again. Next day, Trinity says it was all just a little experiment he was running to see how we would react, not normal content...

10% of that place is reality, finding other sources through it has been good. I've fallen for a lot of crap there, and I know it. I wonder if going through it will make me wiser? Definitely a time waster, but so has been this catastrophe. I feel my time was well spent researching DWH, and my heart is in the right place, but sheesh, stressful reading.

'WTF banning someone for calling you on your shit? .........Imagine that???? Shocking to be banned for asking for a reference of questioning facts that are NOT facts *THUD* Can't believe anyone would do that LOL. Never been banned anywhere yet, but seen alot of it. But, Jason Lucas does not like to be called out on facts or really anything, a trait shared with many - in fact just posting Trinity's real name aka Jason Lucas is an instant ban.

EDIT~my spelling is really bad tonight

Now that was really not nice and not appropriate.


Jason Lucus is an "interesting" character. Some GLP posters looked like they have broken off to set up a competing deal. Lot of disinformnation out about Lucus. Bears some looking into.

Found this: http://www.myspace.com/trinity_uncovered

After a quick look at this story, I want to do a deep scan of my computer.

NAOM~Thank you, that was very kind but I'm used to it:) Very sweet though

BB~Scary isn't it, and he lives in Shalimar-not too far from here and my puter did bite the bullet after viewing that a week earlier, I had to go to the restore from factory condition. Not certain that site did it, but after doing a little digging I decided not to even peek in on that site anymore.

I'm very well protected (it's my business), but I'm checking anyway as I write this.

Found this too at the FTC website, which seems to support the general assertions at the MySpace site that adware/spyware is involved:

Edit: More insight http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9745185~mode=flat

Thanks BB~now if this Jason starts screaming "we are all being poisoned by BP and the Gvmt in the GOM", I will know for certain it's the same......amazing, guess I better pack up and leave now that the duo has confirmed it. I will say in all reality, reading the BS like I just read that Corexit is still being sprayed by unmarked heli's and planes and the latest video is what made me seek out TOD. Grnated I just read and try to absorb the technical info, but I have learned alot and find it fascinating now (must be my Texas heritage showing itself)!

What??? .... aggies can learn??? .... now THAT'S a CT worthy of GLP!!

Just kiddng. I did my undergraduate work at Baylor and still have my Aggie Stick from when I was a Baylor Slime (freshman hazing tradition) when we still played A&M for homecoming.

The Florida connection with GLP does explain the reason for some of their focus.

It's a shock I know LOL.........actually GLP I found another way, thru a missing child case. Full o'nuts no matter how you slice it, but someone posted the info about GLP and spyware/adware months ago and I saw it. Then later I noticed the obvious, I sell postcards and donate all the profits to a search and rescue for missing kids/adults out of Leaugue City, TX so I know many of the missing children cases sadly.

I had friend that went to Baylor, but they were a bit younger than me, probably graduated around 1993ish.

I was long gone by 93 but did go back as a guest lecturer at the J-school (one of the profs was my freshman roomate) for several years during that period.

SInce things are a little slow right now... and since I find a bit a humor in about everything:


"One of the trapped Chilean miners is dreading his rescue after his wife met his secret mistress at the entrance to the San Jose mine, The Sun reported Thursday.

Yonni Barrios' wife, Marta Salinas, and Barrios' lover, Susana Valenzuela, were both holding vigils for him outside the mine. ..."

Can you imagine the mixed emotions? Yeah, hey drillers, can you hurry this up? My wife and mistress are waiting for me topside and I have some explaining to do. I would suspect it could be a source of humor from the other trapped miners at the expense of the one guy, but that may be a good thing.

Seriously, I hope they all get safely rescued sooner than later but topside will be an intersting relief for one of the guys.

a source of humor from the other trapped miners at the expense of the one guy, but that may be a good thing.

Jeepers, he's the medic. Really don't want him to be in a funk.

Hmmm Swift and Lotus... I never thought of that. Yikes. I'd bet he has nearly an, well almost an, ... ok... not quite infinite but a heck of a lot of things going through his mind right now. I'd sure hope he can compartmentalize well if he's the doc.

There's a lot of time to think down there and heck, all things work together for good, right?


They are probably each send him a dozen doughnuts every morning :-)

Hey Lab,

LOL... fatten him up and he'd never get out?

Still, I'd share some first and observe the fellas who ate a donut for a few hours.... just in case. Hey guys, did they taste funny? Anyone dizzy?

I feel bad for the women, and especially for the wife, though. Were it the US the mistress would be posing for Playboy making a small fortune and the wife would write a tell-all and be featured on Oprah.

Anyone know if Chile is more like Europe than the US? Mistresses, particularly in France, are sort of a given and not as much frowned upon as here in the US. I remember DeGaulle's funeral where both the wife and mistress were present. They might have even been standing together. I have only a dim memory of the two standing together so I could be wrong.

nepeta, could you be thinking of Mitterand instead of DeGaulle?

Hmmm. It was a very long time ago. Interesting question, though. I need to know when both died and that will give me the answer.

Btw, I replied to your "bad day" comment yesterday but then both your comment and my reply seem to have disappeared! I went through the thread using "find" for both your name and mine. Nada. I sure don't need MORE strange things presenting themselves. (gr)

nepeta, DeGaulle died in late 1970, Mitterand in early 1996.

Thanks for replying to my lost comment. Wonder why they both went poof (or did that in itself prove my thesis?). What did you say, if you recall?

Yes, I am remembering DeGaulle's funeral in 1970. I would have been in my early twenties then. Definitely a LONG time ago.

As for my reply to your comment, I guessed your sign, offered my sympathy for your horrible and amazingly coincidental (same dentist, same appt time, etc) day and briefly described my car burning to an ember about a month ago. Too off-thread for the moderator? Hard to believe... Maybe I was searching through an earlier version of the thread. That's a possibility. I notice that when one posts a comment, not only do you get the new thread that contains your comment when you refresh but all the old thread(s) remain from every comment you've made. Confusing.

Yes, I am remembering DeGaulle's funeral in 1970

I'll be. And here I thought he and Tante Yvonne were straitlaced as can be. I sure woulda guessed Mitterand instead.

I guessed your sign

What's your guess?

offered my sympathy ... and briefly described my car burning to an ember

Thanks and OH NO! What happened?

I notice that when one posts a comment ...

I'm duller than usual today, so your description of what confuses you also confuses me.

I sure never saw either of the comments described. Could the top post in the thread have been deleted (which automatically deletes all those underneath it, as i understand it)?

Could the top post in the thread have been deleted (which automatically deletes all those underneath it, as i understand it)?

This is my understanding as well. Several of my posts have disappeared when the parent post of the thread was deleted by being "flagged as inappropriate" multiple times.

Edit: Learning how to use block quotes (:

Sorry you missed 'em, SL. After a whine about my bad yesterday, I was warning everybody about Mercury being in retrograde again right now, just as it was on April 20.

And here I thought he and Tante Yvonne were straitlaced as can be...

You thought right. My googling found stories of DeGaulle and his mistress as well as reports of his having his personal life 'in order.' So now I'm confused!

I sure woulda guessed Mitterand instead.

And you would have been right! French politicians...incredible.

What's your guess?


What happened?

An electrical fire. Ugh. First time for that and hopefully the last.

your description of what confuses you also confuses me.

Haha. Ain't that the truth?

Mitterand even dictated funeral arrangements for his second family.

Mr. Mitterrand left instructions that after his death his longtime mistress and their daughter should accompany his widow and their two sons with him to the grave in his native village, Jarnac.

They did, with such grace that they evoked sympathy and admiration for the man who had brought them together in a country where millions had only recently shown little but contempt for him and the political corruption scandals that marred his second seven-year term in office, which ended last May.

Paris Journal - The Secret Mitterrand Couldn't Take With Him. (the secret was health related - the other had been earlier.)


Nuh-uh, Virgo.

An electrical fire. Ugh. First time for that and hopefully the last.

Yeesh and Amen! I trust and hope you escaped injury?


See? Communications ganging a-gley -- we can thank you-know-who in you-know-what!

Nuh-uh, Virgo.

Amazing. I'm a Virgo too. So now we understand each other, right? (grin)

So now we understand each other, right? (grin)

Sho' (and Hoppy Birdie to us into the bargain)!

heck of a lot of things going through his mind right now

Are we sure he knows what's going on up there? The story doesn't really say. Well, at least we know what one of the subplots of the movie's going to be.

As a medic, once he is topside, it might be a case of "Physician, heal thyself."

O ye gods, RSG, he's their medic!

Whoops, shoulda refreshed earlier. Sorry for the echo, SL.

Very common to have a lover or few in the Latin countries. Do the math, everyone talks about the men but the women have to be the same for the numbers to add up ;)


everyone talks about the men but the women have to be the same for the numbers to add up

Ahem, NOAM. It's some folks stay bizzybizzybizzier'n others, ya know.



Maybe by the time he gets rescued, the women will have taken up with each other and his problem will be solved. A guy can always dream ya know. ;)

Very common to have a lover or few in the Latin countries.

NAOM, it is very common in many if not most countries, Latin countries may just be a bit more honest...

The widespread use of DNA analysis has presented science and society with all sorts of new ethical problems, and now it's pulling this naked truth out of the closet and into the courtroom. Men who call themselves "Duped Dads" are looking for legal redress to protect themselves against paternity fraud, raising questions about the definition of fatherhood. Several U.S. states are considering legislation that could exempt non-biological fathers from having to pay child support.

Even the most learned among us are grappling with the implications. Last month, the 10-per-cent non-paternity rate was cited during a science seminar for judges in Halifax.

"The judges were just shocked; they really couldn't get over how many people this would affect," Dr. Scherer said. "They kept saying things about all those poor people who might be misled -- never realizing that one of them might actually be among them!"


There was a cover story on this in the NYTimes magazine section last winter...

Who Knew I was not the Father?

DNA testing has also revealed the same to be true of some species of birds that were previously thought to be monogamous.

In family court, it's not that unusual to find that the natural fathers of children may be other than the supposed fathers. To address this issue, a number of states have statutes to disestablish paternity for such men who have signed the birth certificate affidavit. From the "duped male's" point of view, it's a betrayal of the cruelest kind with both emotional and financial consequences. From the innocent child's point of view, it's heartbreaking to not only be bastardized but to suddenly lose a parent, especially if that parent has acted as a loving father for a number of years.

So if I did my conversions right, the red weight indication arrow on the Q4000 feed should read about 1,000 once it latches on the BOP?

I used this converter, fyi. This is also using Allen's "estimated BOP weight" of 1 meeeeeeeeeeeeellliiooon pounds. ::Dr. Evil Voice::


Now, if we could get the good Thadmiral to do the Dr. Evil thing with his little finger, the scene would be complete. I'd pay money to see it. Hey -- a fundraiser!

You guys seen this yet?


Looks like a rig explosion of some sort in the gulf.

Looks like a rig explosion of some sort in the gulf.

This is now breaking news on CNN, BTW. According to a Coast Guard guy via telephone, the rig is thought not to have been actively producing. He seemed to be indicating that meant an oil leak as a result of the explosion was less likely, but he couldn't say for sure.

Good news: the missing hand has been found, so the crew is now all accounted for. The injured ("at least one") are being flown to nearby hospitals.

Word is now that there is no leak - Officials Assess Damage ..

and that Gov. Jindal is visiting the rig workers in the hospital where they were taken for checkups - 10 Oil platform workers being treated in Houma hospital.

Thanks to BP filling the Gulf to the brim with Corexit, from now on all oil spills will disappear from the surface within 8 hours and will then form unseen sunken rivers that end up as toxic rain on Minneapolis and Omaha.

Reuters news alert: US Coast Guard says there was a rig explosion in the Gulf of Mexico, rig owned by Mariner Energy (ME)

Coast Guard spokesperson says reports of injuries. A plane flew overhead saw people in the water.

Conflicting reports about which rig, Vermilion 380 or Vermilion 398.

13 people aboard the rig. All of them have been accounted for. Twelve of them have been placed in immersion suits.


Sounds like it may be a production platform rather than a drilling rig.

Yeah, the ME stock price dropped 13% on the news but now it's trading down 2%.

Update: http://www.cnbc.com/id/38973706

Sorry if it's already posted, all crew are reported alive and accounted for. Thank God.......

Ahem ...

1 Missing After Rig Explosion In Gulf

NEW ORLEANS -- One person is missing after a rig explosion in the Gulf of Mexico, about 80 miles south of Vermilion Bay, the U.S. Coast Guard said.

ya, fun stuff.

part 2?

sure is getting dark out.

Moonie -- From the head count, operator and location it sounds more like a production platform then a drilling rig. Time will tell...should be plenty of MSM in the area.

Rockman, reports call it an "inactive" rig. Why would 13 people be aboard if that's so?

Reportedly they were sandblasting and painting the rig.

lotus - I suspect it is a shut in (non-producing) platform. Mariner is a well known salvaging company: take old worn out fields and bring them back to life.

Strangely enough, Washington Post says it's a production well, giving BO&GD figures. Washington Post also said all 13 people on the rig were rescued.


I think the spokesman corrected himself, one injured, all rescued.

Latching tool down one full string. They're now raising the next string. Looks like the show is on.

Difference between blue suits and red suits? Companies? Or job, maybe?

Most likely company colors. Either that or WalMart had another sale on jumpers.

and the Discoverer Enterprise is moving over the well site, positioning for the cap removal. It is now so close to the Q4000 that it is visible in the upper left of the Q4000 camera shot.

HT to dynamic positioning. Allen mentioned that when he was on DDIII earlier this week, the Q4000 was so close he felt like he could almost throw a rock and hit it. (wonder what he and Wright talked about when he was on board.)

Good stuff again, rainy, thanks (also for the maintenance-work answer re the Vermilion rig). You betcha y'ain't the only one wishing to be a fly on Allen/Wright's wall.

Is the Admiral on the Q4000 for this operation?

I doubt that Allen is out there now. He did visit the Q4000 earlier this week, after being on DDIII. He was in Houston yesterday - who knows where he is today. He has really racked up the frequent flyer miles this summer.

There are eleven investigators total on the Enterprise and the Q4000 - that's enough eyes.

I wondered because everything came to a stop right after the other rig news came out. I thought maybe Allen asked for a pause while he finds out the situation over there. (Don't know whether it would be his to handle or not, but it wouldn't surprise me).

I am more inclined to go for the simpler explanation of waiting for calmer seas. If there is a prediction that the sea state will be better or that it may get choppier in the mean time then it would be crazy to rush ahead.


or a lunch break. Work on Q4000 has resumed - another section of pipe was just lowered.

Anybody know what time shift changes typically occur on board rigs?

Looks like another lunch break.

Edit: Maybe not. Just saw a guy in swimming trunks headin' towards the moon hole.

First shift 0600 to 1800, second shift 1800 to 0600.
(Six am to six pm, six pm to six am).
Two weeks on then two weeks off, 12hrs x 14 days = 168 hours, equal to a Monday thru Friday eight hour a day job.

From reading some of the transcripts of the CG/MMS hearings, I gather that there are also people working 12 to 12 shifts.

Would they be Operations and Mtnce. or Mgmt staff?

Drill crews traditionally work 12 to 12, IE from driller down. Toolpusher and up work 6 to 6. The marine crew, ROV and maintainance, etc work 6 to 6. Other rigs other than drilling rig, eg Q4000 will most likely work 6 to 6, it is their choise and it is out of my area.

This for Avonaltendorf:

Thank you for your answer. I had concluded the same—the BP may have a flowing well, and, unable to contain it, are instead trying to contain the knowledge.

It would be fatuous to assume that BP—having marshalled its considerable armada of spin-control vessels to stifle anything resembling plain truth—would ignore such a public and influential forum as TOD.

It is equally fatuous to believe that anyone who reads or posts anything on this site that might be contrary to the official BP party line is doing so for financial reasons. There are many of us, like myself, who grew up next to the ocean, who harbor a deep and abiding love for it, and who abhor anyone or anything that would despoil it.

That anything Avonaltendorf posts is immediately met with cacaphony of turkey-gobbler-like ridicule, denial, and derision is the strongest evidence that BP is alive and well on this site. As James Bond used to say: "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action..."

That anything Avonaltendorf posts is immediately met with cacaphony of turkey-gobbler-like ridicule, denial, and derision is the strongest evidence that BP is alive and well on this site.

As comfychair observed in the closed thread:

What you seem to forget is that the ridicule you think is coming from 'BP shills to hide the truth' is also the ridicule you'd get if your claims were ridiculous.

Jesus Christ; after a few weeks on this site, I am beginning to realise why you people go off bombing little countries so frequently.

BP is alive and well on this site

Big fan of analysis via giant pixels, are you?


Only a paid BP shill would post unaltered screen captures, only the honest straight shooters would fiddle with the Photoshop knobs. Everybody knows that.

It is equally fatuous to believe that anyone who reads or posts anything on this site that might be contrary to the official BP party line is doing so for financial reasons. There are many of us, like myself, who grew up next to the ocean, who harbor a deep and abiding love for it, and who abhor anyone or anything that would despoil it.

That anything Avonaltendorf posts is immediately met with cacaphony of turkey-gobbler-like ridicule, denial, and derision is the strongest evidence that BP is alive and well on this site. As James Bond used to say: "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action..."

My favorite:

As James Bond used to say: "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action..."

Wasn't James Bond. Ian Fleming of course wrote the words, and they were spoken by Auric Goldfinger to Bond.

On the whole Avonaltendorf seems sincere if a little over enthusiastic and maybe a little misguided. Once convinced he was wrong he has often jumped into correct others who had the same initial misconception. For that he deserves some respect. But he does jump to off the wall conclusions a bit to hastily for the taste of many of us. The recent blanket accusations of BP shills was a bit uncharacteristic. Considering the spate of blog whores and their sock puppets we get, BP shills (whoever they might be) are probably the least of our problems. (And unlike almost everyone here, I actually have been paid by BP once, and in a previous life even had reason to be very thankful to BP/Amoco - as they were at the time - for helping me keep a large supercomputer alive. I'm quite up front about that.)

Most of us here adhere to the mixture of Occam's Razor and the first Law of Conspiracies. If you need to choose between incompetence and conspiracy, always choose incompetence. And Occam's Razor is pretty clear about whether you choose to believe that BP in collusion with the US government is covering up a flowing well or not. Especially when such an event would lead to further ,impossible to cover up, environmental damage. Considering the flimsiness of evidence in support of the assertion, I would be prepared to bet serious money against it. Want to put some real money on your belief?

New rig explosion off LA --

Just saw news of another explosion on a rig off LA today (tried to start a new thread, but can't find how, sorry).

News seems very confused so far, but apparently no fatalities so far and only 1 person missing; so maybe Providence has been kind and this one is small....

Coast Guard: Offshore oil rig explodes in Gulf of Mexico west of BP oil spill site. Dozen people in the water. I officially hit the little oh crap button. The big button still has the cover on it.

Edit: Another cut from the story.

The Coast Guard told CNN 12 people went overboard with one missing. Rescue attempts are underway. Reports indicate the rig wasn't producing at the time of the accident.
Five helicopters, two airplanes and four boats are en route from Coast Guard stations in New Orleans and Houston, Ranel said.
She said the rig, Vermillion Oil Rig 380, is owned by Mariner Energy.
Vermillion Oil Rig 360 is a gas and oil rig in 450 feet of water in South Timbalier Block 316, according to company records.


also at:


Vermilion Oil Rig 380, owned by Mariner Energy, Inc.

interesting times...

OK, did "a rig explode" ... or, was there "an explosion on a rig" ???

I'll hold my breath waiting for our crack American journalists to sort this out ...

Does anyone think that there might have been a second well after all?

And just what is it that is fueling the fire? Fuel on board or HC's coming up the wellbore?

There is usually some inventory in the production separators and also in the stock tank. Usually not more than a couple thousand BBLS on a small production platform like V 380.

gobble, gobble

Do you have any facts about anything? Or are you just good on James Bond movie trivia and animal noises?

I figure he is just anxious for Thanksgiving. Maybe a Cowboys or Lions fan. Good luck with that, TWO DAT.

Brought forward from previous thread;

...a hanger similar to an upside down wastebasket.

That's called a 'top hat TMS'. (TMS = Tether Management System)

They don't necessarily have shorter tethers, both cages and top hats generally have the same size drum in them (the limiting factor for tether length). Nor do they bob up and down more, both bob up and down just the same amount as the surface vessel they are being deployed from.


Thanks for setting me straight there on the TMS. I have nothing but great admiration for what you guys do! Thank the other guys for the entertainment during the hours of boredom. I know some of you don't relish the thought of millions looking over your shoulder while you perform difficult tasks. Thanks for keeping us informed and keeping us honest.

Edited for clarity

I am glad you are posting more. Thank you.

From the second explosion story -

The oil industry publication upstreamonline.com is reporting that the Mariner Energy structure is believed to be a manned, fixed steel production platform piled to the seabed, which also serves as a junction point for numerous pipelines.

EXPERTS. Junction point for numerous pipelines. I need an 'on the fly', totally speculative, risk assessment of the threat posed by these 'pipelines' and the junction. Do such things tend to be designed with an explosion topside in mind. Are the pipes isolated from the operations? Can you even guess or are there too many variables. I am concerned about these pipelines. Do they hold oil? How much. If they break can they be 'shutoff' easily? Will a shutoff impact production in the area? A large area?

This bothers me. Help. I am glad all souls are accounted for. Does this happen all the time and we don't notice? Are we too sensitive to this now?

is this a coverup of the second well that Matt Simmons was talking about?

I doubt the second Simmons well was producing for months or years before it came to be.

No. Try to keep it straight. The largest producer on earth is a hole caused by the BOP/pipe launch which punctured the sea floor upon landing and sinking, not by a well. The coverup is still working because it hasn't been found. The coverup of the second well drilled by BP is also working perfectly because it hasn't been found even though its coordinates were discovered by internet sleuths.


Ever think that we're all overlooking an important discovery here. Since the launched BOP has made the largest producer on earth, why not exploit this technique fully? We don't need DW drilling rigs anymore. We could make a fleet of heavy-lift aircraft (think of a scaled up C5M) that could drop BOP and pipe. We could even hire shrimpers offseason to circle the impact area and shout, "INCOMING!" Everybody wins!

Oh wait ... bad idea after all. Only a couple of these size producers might negate peak oil entirely and there goes TOD. Okay, we have to suppress this technology to keep TOD. So, bring in the men in black. We never had this conversation.


No, but one has to wonder if this isn't something else Simmons was warning us about - rust.

I am concerned about these pipelines. Do they hold oil? How much. If they break can they be 'shutoff' easily? Will a shutoff impact production in the area? A large area?

Fairly big pipeline junction, both oil & gas. Platform is 30 years old.

No reports of oil on the surface as yet. Reports are that the explosion occurred away from the platform which is located in South Timbalier Block 316, I think, but I haven't see confirmation or an explanation. Water depth is 340 feet. From the 10k:

"At year-end 2009 estimated proved reserves attributed to our Vermillion 380 field were 33.2 Bcfe, consisting of approximately 47% oil and NGLs and 53% natural gas. During 2008 and 2009, we drilled five wells and added additional production capacity on the “A” platform. Hurricane Ike damaged the structure with the rig on the platform, causing us to suspend drilling while underwater structural repairs were made. We brought the platform back on production at reduced rates until the facilities upgrade was finished. The platform is currently producing approximately 28 MMcfe per day. Our working interest in this block is 100%. Production at Vermillion 380 was approximately 1.1 Bcfe in 2009."

There just has to be anti-backflow valves in those lines. Otherwise any break anywhere would force shutdowns on every producer connected. But obviously something was available to burn, so I don't know.

Apparently no impact on pipelines. "The company reported there were seven active wells on the platform and one caught fire, but all are now shut in. Mariner also reported the platform produced an average of 1,400 barrels of oil per day." (local TV)

Reuters is reporting that Jindal says production has been shut down and that the fire on the platform is being fueled by flammable material in storage.

My plan is now working to perfection... I've tired of the slow progress the Humans are making towards their own self-destruction, so I engineered the "new oil eating bacteria" to function as a "Hive Mind" to actively seek and "uncork" their food sources. My next diabolical plan is to begin seeding Saltpeter into the Chemtrails...:)

The saltpeter is too late for some of us.

Offshore Oil Platform in the Gulf of Mexico Explodes http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/us/03rig.html?hp

Here we go again, I hope not.

Look up, but yes we are all concerned. I am most concerned about the pipeline now, although I am guessing pipeline integrity may not necessarily be threatened, and even if it is, shutoffs should be an option. Then you have to think about production stoppages on a larger area, but even the whole area shut down would be like a tropical storm, so I am not TOO concerned at this moment.

Edit: Also you worry about well integrity, but again I have to believe a production well has to be safer than BP + 'the well from hell'.

Edit again: Post from site. During the last week of August 2010, production from this facility averaged approximately 9.2 million cubic feet of natural gas per day and 1,400 barrels of oil and condensate. Updated information will be provided as available.

Oil sheen being reported near the platform, 100' wide, 1.1 miles long. Unclear where it's coming from.

Sheen again? Next on the lineup, Martin and Charlie Sheen with a guest visit from Emilio Estavez. This is getting old.

The platform is a fixed petroleum platform that was in production at the time of the fire, according to a homeland security operational update obtained by The Associated Press.

The update said the platform was producing about 58,800 gallons of oil and 900,000 cubic feet of gas per day. The platform can store 4,200 gallons of oil.


You and I both know where it's coming from, but are afraid to say it. ;-)

Edit: Remember what happened to the last guy.

Depends. 1 gallon or 5,000 in that 'slick'? We need quantitative information now.

awwright, the NEXT person who posts this story has to buy everyone teh BBIC!!

Vermilion 380 is a lease block where a production platform is operating 2 or more wells (2 were drilled in 2008):



I'm looking for info about the lease on the BOEMRE site, lost of documents there, but apparently up to 2007. This is the search engine:


Insert "block" 380 and "area code" VR

EDIT: with "lease number" I meant "block" sorry, now fixed

ADD: Lease number is G02580, go to WELLS (https://www.gomr.boemre.gov/WebStore/pifront.asp), insert this code and you get applications for drill permits w/ maps of the area.

Somewhere on the planet there has to be a small control box with just two buttons...."Nurse" and "Nuke".

Spitting Image over two decades ago?

Poor timing ...

Mariner staff were among numerous employees from a variety of oil companies rallying in Houston yesterday to protest the Gulf moratorium.

“I have been in the oil and gas industry for 40 years, and this administration is trying to break us,” said Barbara Dianne Hagood, senior landman for Mariner Energy, a small company. “The moratorium they imposed is going to be a financial disaster for the gulf coast, gulf coast employees and gulf coast residents.”

One Day Before Its Gulf Oil Rig Exploded, Mariner Energy Said Obama ‘Is Trying To Break Us’ With Moratorium

No, this helps the ban lifting group IMHO. This well was exempt and producing. The ban did bupkis to prevent this and in fact may have hastened it. You know there are labor issues in this industry now. New guys coming and going all the time. Where was that procedure manual again? Screw it, I'll wing it. I am only here for 6 months anyhow. What do I have to lose? This post is SPECULATION, but I am actually taking a counter position on this, so I should get a pass.
Lift the ban, and I am 'anti-oil' right now. By anti-oil I mean I want us to do away with it, but in a sensible manner.

Perhaps... but I'm not sure the general public is that tuned into the difference between drilling/exploration and production. It is yet another reminder of the risks being taken to provide us with the fuel we are so dependent upon.

The "general public" "knows" only one thing, and that item is whether or not any gas comes out of the gas pump. If it does, they grumble pump and pay, if not, they'll scream bloody murder and take to the streets with pitchforks and torches(unlit?).

Simple, really.

Typical, irresponsible, 'blame the customer' attitude.

No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible.

Actually, now that you brought it up, "the customer" IS partly to blame. Why, you ask? Well, consider this...

Any (well functioning) Democracy (or variants) requires at least the majority of its citizens to be educated AND well informed, at least in order for the "Democracy" to endure for a significant period of time. Consider also that the "majority" in this country seem to be headed firmly in the direction of "The Marching Morons" (author C.M. Kornbluth).

Your "customer", or at least a majority of them seem "well informed" on sports,"dancing with the stars", etc., ad nauseum, and little more. Therefore the "customers" own blissful ignorance IS sharing the blame.

If you have doubt's of the veracity of these points, take a stroll through your local mall or Walmart...

"own blissful ignorance IS sharing the blame."

'Ignorance is bliss' the quote goes. From Thomas Gray's poem, Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College.
Most folks leave out the second part to that one, and it is vital to context and meaning of the first phrase.
''Tis folly to be wise'


My attempt at interpretation, sometimes you don't ask what is in the sausage, sometimes you do. If you do ask, you need to be prepared for the answer.

I try to at least find out as many things about the world and how it works as I can before I bow out. The planet seems pretty straightforward (with enough data that is) the people...not a clue. But then again based on some anecdotal stories I've heard (some from people who have worked in a position to "know" certain bits of information), that I might well choose "blissful ignorance" because actually knowing what goes on, would prevent you from sleeping for the rest of your life...

As for Sausages ( and hot dogs too!), I do think I know enough...and really don't want to know any more:).

Hex -- I'm with you and wouldn't blame the customer. But the American people are more than just customers in this matter. They are partners. The mineral leases belong to them and the public, thru its govt, choses to allow drilling/production offshore. No company has a given right to drill out there. The operators are still 100% responsible for their actions. But they are drilling with the encouragement and approval of the public. It would be a simple matter to never have another offshore spill: never allow drilling out there again. That's a choice the public/govt is free to make. The public/govt are more than customers..they are facilitators. They are not repsonisble for the mistakes operators make. But they are responsible for the operators being out in the GOM.

Thanks guys.
Every time I write something, I dread the reply, and every time so far, you seem to understand my position. That's encouraging.
As a customer of democracy and oil, I am trying to educate myself as much as possible about the benefits and dangers of their uses.
The inherent risk of driving a motorcycle or car is part of the formula.
I'd like to see lighter weight bicycle, tricycle, solar-electric/gas-ethanol/human powered hybrid vehicles, but there is no place for them on our city streets or highways. Same goes for more BART mass transit and the California bullet train.
For this reason, I'd like to see gas get very expensive, to force a social change. Peak oil? fossil or abiotic? All theories. I don't think we can sustain the SUV forever.

Perhaps... but I'm not sure the general public is that tuned into the difference between drilling/exploration and production. It is yet another reminder of the risks being taken to provide us with the fuel we are so dependent upon.

Old link but still relevant: http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-are-we-drilling-5000-feet-in-fir...

Don't worry, Ms. Hagood. Joe Barton will be along in a moment here to apologize to you.

Currently it looks like Enterprise ROV1 is monitoring the joining of the drill (lift) string and the capping stack.

Enterprise 1 & 2, Skandi 1, BoA 1


Soft dock, going for the latches


Bingo! Joined. It looks a bit crooked after seating.

Pretty impressive work - a mile of pipe latching on to 18". And with no help with positioning from the rovs - except for the cameras of course.

FOR ALL: Why we sit and wait I'll pass on a story told by one of my vendors at lunch today. The Mariner accident was an obvious topic. Long ago while he was working on a drill ship the well took a very bad kick. Bad enough that they launched the escape capsules with all the non-essentials. Left him, the company man, the OIM and the two tool pusher behind to control the well. He was monitoring the camera on the BOP and could see it wasn't functioning properly. Told the tool pusher next him. Tool pusher's response: "Well...looks like we might be about to die". He knew it was true because, as we all now know, the BOP is the WORSE line of defense. He held his post while they fought the kick. The tool pusher looked at him and said: "I figure you either have the balls for this job or you're just plain stupid". My vendor asked the TP which category he thought he fell into. The TP: "I don't know...still trying to figure you out". They finally got the well shut in, killed the kick and then went back to drilling. The TP never did tell him how he judged him. They never did talk much about the incident afterwards.

His story was an obvious reminder of the 11: they just stayed with it. And that's about all you need say about that.

When I was at lunch today in a fancy restaurant, they were talking about the blow out and the hazards of working on a rig and I said I really missed working out on rigs. The others were a little surprised and asked why. I thought about it for a moment, but then I answered, "It was the people. It was the kind of people you get to work with." People like the OIM and TPs you tell the story about here. People you would trust putting your life in their hands.

trash -- Naw...I think me, you and the others are "just plain stupid". LOL. That and we don't care so much for sitting in an office. At least I gave up wearing a tie 25 years ago.

More wingtips in my closet now days than Red Wings.

At least I gave up wearing a tie 25 years ago

You know, me too (the "Annie Hall" look having eventually worn out its welcome). Of course, we gurlz got to wear ours loosely knotted, but I used to could tie a nice half-Windsor. Had trouble getting the knots in silk ties to stay put, though.

I had to wear a tie for 5-years, but I fought back by wearing ties with cartoon characters on them and stuff.

Started in Exploration of a major. Hated the tie, traffic, cubic office. Been at the top, one on one with upper management. There is alot of pressure. Fun at times, mostly not. Car was stolen twice & this farm boy quit a perfectly good job.

64.5 million feet (258 mft/yr) were drilled in the US first quarter of 2009, One company screwed up big time drilling 18,000 ft. Now the whole industry is suspect, including the people employed, proven by a moratorium from a non-technical, agenda driven administration.

The field is more fun. People are there to get the job done. Hard working, skilled, creative, trusted, dedicated and working as a team. It gets in your blood. It really is the people.

Would love to cite those numbers, do you have a source?

From my little experience in the field, and just working behind the scenes in general, I have to agree with the "gets in your blood" part.

Since we're confessing about wearing ties, yes, I have, and no, I didn't like it, either. I've worked for a subsidiary of Halliburton in the past, along with many other nefarious characters I wouldn't hesitate to draw a paycheck from again, if the opportunity presented itself.

Not only that, having read an entire thread on TOD, top to bottom, I'm probably much more informed than I was before. So, there!

Good night to all y'all on the shady side of the planet. Thanks for everything.

My years as a "Techie" and not wearing Ties, but observing the ones who had to wear em' showed me that they had only one functional use... When the company folded or layoffs occurred, management didn't have to shell out any extra bucks for a NOOSE, they just strung em' up by their Ties.

Best advice for the youngin's...wear a clip-on.

I always thought of it more as a leash, a symbol that says somebody else ultimately pulls your strings.

When I worked sales, I wore a tie for the customer, other sales people didn't...I out sold them all.

Heard that Hex. When I was selling driling deals I always kept a coat and tie hanging on the back of my door. You know well the value of first impressions for sure.

Speaking of good hands, I got to spend 3-weeks out on the Q4000. Great bunch of guys and gals.


Watching the weight indicator, I take it the idea would be enough weight to get a good seat and latch on the upper "new" stack, but I can't see em' wanting to put any more weight on that stack than they just had to...

Go to the top of this thread and read again:

1. The the Q-4000 derrick hookload indicator is measuring in kilopounds and is showing the weight of the drillstring and its attachments hanging from the Q-4000 at currently 287 kilopounds. Thadmiral said in yesterday's press conference: "The combined weight of the drill string, the latching mechanism and the blowout preventer itself is approximately a million pounds."

It's the hookload suspended by the Q-4000, not weight on the cap...

Yes, I know that bit, what I'm saying is that they want to apply as little as possible of that Suspended Weight to the existing stack. Okie Dokey?

Watching the gauge, they seem to be doin' a pretty good job of doing that:)

The gauge isn't showing anything about the current operation - the removal of the capping stack by the Discoverer Enterprise.

It will, presumably, be informative once the Q4000 begins work to remove the transition spool and old BOP. atm, it is just showing the combined weight of the drill pipe and BOP removal device, which extend some 4900' down.

From an engineering perspective it IS providing information. That 300,000 pound reading indicates that very little, if any weight from the suspended mass is setting on the bottom stack. Any sudden decrease in the 300,000 lb reading would indicate that the suspended weight is transferring to the stack (this would be a bad thing...).

Except that the gauge reflects weight on the Q4000 drill string and the Q4000 string is not on top of the stack yet.

The Enterprise is the vessel currently connected to the stack, and , presumably, it also has a weight gauge that has been serving a similar purpose during its efforts.

If true, point taken but moot. Same principle applies to both operations...don't poke the thing with a "big heavy stick" any more than you have to...

Only one problem with that, the one doing the work is the Enterprise not the Q4000. The Q4000's pipe is hanging in free water.


The Q4000 is doing the work. They just added a section of drill pipe to maybe lower the capping stack to the seafloor? The rig they have to screw the sections together is pretty slick to watch.
Back to 300KLbs of load again.



The Q4000 added the last length of pipe needed to get to the depth necessary to connect to the transition spool atop the old BOP now that the Discoverer Enterprise has lifted off the capping stack.

The capping stack can be seen hanging off the DE riser string via Enterprise ROV2 at http://mfile.akamai.com/97892/live/reflector:21145.asx

The empty connector at the end of the Q4000 drill string is currently visible via Q4000 ROV2 at http://mfile.akamai.com/97892/live/reflector:35523.asx , waiting to be lowered onto the spool once the Q4000 has moved into position above the well.

Thanks, I just assumed the capping stack was still hanging down there.
So, the next step is attaching to the top of the original BOP and yank it to the surface. This should be an interesting night.


EDIT: Any bets on whether or not they'll work all night....or wait for daylight tomorrow?

Yes, could be an interesting evening. The DE is moving away, making room for the Q4000 to move in.

btw, to be precise, the connector will be attaching to the top of the transition spool, not to the BOP itself. Skandi 1 was cleaning off the top of the spool a few minutes ago. (Hhe did the same earlier today for the top of the cap before it was connected.) There was no sign of any of the burps of hyrdrates/HCs or whatever it was that were periodically observed being emitted from the top of the capping stack in recent days. It appears that something in the stack itself was the source.

Mick, the comment I replied to indicated that the Q4000 was removing the cap assembly rather than the Enterprise which was the craft actually doing it.


EDIT: BTW just noted that the Enterprise is moving out of the 'box' to make way for the Q4000.

Capping stack unlocked.

Capping stack away! No plumes.

Maybe no plumes (yet), but I thought for sure that just for a second I saw Dick Chaney stick his head out and look around...

Um... Do you mean Dick Cheney?

Yes, yes I did. They get it no matter how you spell it:).

In truth, I was just looking for an excuse to post a link to the "Cheney has no pulse" story ;)

"Cheney has no pulse"


And the official word from the Admiral... BOP removal operation to begin this evening.

Under the direction of the federal science team and U.S. government engineers, BP has completed the capping stack removal procedure – an important step in the process to remove and preserve the damaged BOP. This procedure was undertaken in accordance with specific conditions I set forth in a directive authorizing the capping stack removal and BOP replacement last week. BP will continue to follow these required conditions for the BOP removal procedure, which is expected to commence this evening. I will continue to provide updates as necessary.

Statement from Adm Allen

So from this point on until the new BOP is in place,locked-down, and hooked-up; or the cap is put back on, they have no easy way of shutting this thing down again if it blows again. Not that I think anything is going to blow, its been well tested so as long as they don't pull too hard on a stuck stack, it should be fine. But still, no 2nd line of defense for awhile. I wish them luck! Is it common for wells to be left in a state like this where there are no backups for any length of time?

Here is an important story by Ben Raines where Allen and various engineers second-guess the decisions that delayed for so long the setting of the hard cap. Allen says "it was BP's position" as well as the govt science team's that led to the (in hindsight) overly cautious tactics.


A quote from Philip Johnson in the report by Ben Raines (see above):

“Why did they bother to cut the pipe with the diamond saw and all that? Why not try to unbolt it in the first place? That’s what they did in the end to install the new cap.

Three reasons:

1. If the drill pipe was held by the shear ram at one end and trapped in the bent over riser at the other end, then unbolting the riser would not release it until the drill pipe was cut.

2. Judging by the number of unsuccessful practice attempts, they evidently did not have a tool immediately available that could do the unbolting.

3. The transition spool needed to be fabricated (although I have never been sure why they needed it).

Not saying they couldn't have done it faster, but it wasn't as easy as the quote implies.

Transition spool is simply a piece of pipe that connects the riser flange to the HC connector hub that the BOP latches unto. The flange and connector hub are off the shelf items.

But there is also a HC connector just below the flex joint at the bottom of the LMRP. If they would unlatch that connector and lift off the LMRP, you have a HC connector hub on top of the old BOP that is ready to drop another BOP on top of. BP called that plan the BOP-on-BOP. Tony the CEO mentioned that plan in passing early in May. I bet he's kicking himself for not implementing the BOP-on-BOP plan.

They had a second BOP on board DDII, all ready to be lowered. But that was when they were reportedly increasingly concerned about the integrity of the well itself and they backed off.

They may have believed that they needed the extra length due to pipe sticking out of the old BOP. Early attempts to cut the riser and pipe with the diamond saw failed due in part to two pieces fo pipe being stuck in the riser.

The diamond saw was a joke.

You have to admire Allen for speaking the truth. He could have just as easily kept his mouth shut. He is the only one in this whole sorry mess that has been willing to admit it could have been done better. Look at BP they're not going to admit they could have done better. They are probably going to persist in their story that it takes 2.5 months to build a capping stack.

I'm sure he will be credited by many with causing all the oil that spilled since May 1. The brainless will reason that if he knows that the well could be capped in May then why didn't he do it.

He didn't know that the well could be capped in May and neither did anyone else. But now we know.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

BP could have capped the well before Chu and the government kibitzers even arrived on the scene. They could have snipped off the riser and unlatched the LMRP connector and dropped another BOP on that connector hub and had it all done around the first week of May.



There was discussion at TOD in May concerning the possibility that the LMRP unlatching mechanism was inoperative. Do you have any info about that?

I was led to believe early on, by reliable sources, the capping stack was built and waiting in the wings for a month before it was actually deployed. At the risk of stirring up the BP-Anti-Christ crowd, it was the feds holding up the party all along; the streaming videos could not be turned off (CNN would not have stood for it) and nobody in the WH wanted America to see what 65,000 BOPD (pun intended) looked like screaming out of the top of the annular. While all the bickering was going on those guys figured out a way to contain 8,000 then 25,000 a day that was not otherwise going into the sea and that I think was big work. So I for one buy into this story, thanks for sending it.

I personally think this thing is stuffed with cement, down and around, and there is not much to do with the relief well except put another wad across the shoe and that is all for show, because that is by golly what the Admiral he say they be doing. The feds have been calling the plays for a long time, including all this hubub about fishing DP and swapping BOP's, and all BP can do is grin and bare it, even at 13 million dollars daily well costs. This whole deal has been a lot about politics since 15 July.

I distinctly remember Tony Hayward stating on camera, when asked about the 1000 bpd then 5000 bpd estimates being inaccurate, he said: "Those arn't BP's estimates, those are your GOVERNMENTS estimates..."

I believe USG has been in control of DWH since late April 'mitigating' damages.

Consider the Government's dilemma at the time. If they let BP control the situation they would have been blamed for being liberal woosies and failing to take charge (the Republicans would have had a field day with that one), but if they did take charge it was obvious that given all of the unknowns it was highly likely that whatever course of action that they or anyone else chose to take would turn out (in 20/20 hindsight) to not have been the best possible way to proceed. If they had tried a more aggressive approach that led to increased flow, they would have been trashed for recklessness. In fact, they were criticized quite a bit for making the situation worse by cutting the riser. Now they are criticized for not being reckless enough. Either that, or for secretly causing the blowout to stop deepwater oil drilling. This was a no-win situation for the Obama Administration.

Best I've heard on here so far---a "no win for Obama." Good riddance!

That's one thing i just don't understand, the people who cheer and hope for their president to fail when their country is facing a host of very difficult problems, the worst of which were here before obama came on the scene.

They would rather see Obama suffer some humiliating defeat than see the country do well under his leadership.

America is sick and needs a shrink.

Sorry, I'm not volunteering.

not so much cheering him to fail, as just want him to go away, in my case, any way.

I understand the damage-control issues at play, (to some extent), so I'm probably not as vocal as many others who have the same general feeling that, well, maybe we can do better next time.

Rest assured, I could care less about humiliating defeat. I just want someone who I feel like I can trust to take his place.

I'm not arguing that a shrink wouldn't benefit me, and please know I value your perspective when I say, at least I don't need a lawyer, at the moment.

Cheers, syncro, you're one of the good guys, as far as I'm concerned.

motownmutt, thanks for the high compliment.

Yup, i know what it's like to have a president you don't wan t in there. It's usually that way, though, isn't it, seriously, no matter what party they are from?

I just hate to see so much wasted emotion, especially when it is so counter-productive and so much of the crap out there is just flatly untrue. The divisions are so bitter and ridiculous, too.

What happened to the days when if the other guy won, you sucked it up and supported him where you could because we're all americans. Sure no one likes the other team's guy in there. But look what they did to clinton, they impeached him for godsake. They claimed he murdered vince foster and all sorts of crazy stuff. Looking back, that was insane, wasn't it? I see the same thing being done to obama. And to what end?

Anyway, thanks for the warm and friendly tip of the hat, Motownmutt. Much appreciated!

Actually this was just another example of BP's talent for: 'Open Mouth - insert foot.' The chose the 5,000 BPD number as the midrange of the numbers they were given. if they had simply repeated the _range_ of numbers given to them - then the government would be responsible for the estimates. Instead BP went and arbitriarly chose the 5,000 number because it seemed 'reasonable' to them (wishful thinking?) and when they did this they took ownership of a bad estimate.

One of the first rules of crisis management is to never say anything unless you know it is a fact. In fact - if I were advising BP - I would have recommended that _no_ internally generated spill estimate be released and state that they are relying on the US government for those estimates and only release spill estimates that can be sourced back to the US government. (reserving thier own spill estimates as a means of keeping the government honest.)

If nobody has any real idea how much oil is leaking - let somebodyu else take the fall for bad data.

Raises some questions, as to the "who's in charge" aspect of the crisis management scenario. For me, the multi-agency, (not private contractor/gov't agency), response to the Columbia shuttle recovery was one of the best run operations I've worked on. It raises questions to me of, at what point *before* an incident does the gov't run things, and how much control *before* the incident does the gov't have a role?

I've not worked oil patch, but I'm curious what those of you who do, feel is the proper role of gov't *before* the tipping point where daily operations become crisis management operations?

Good question.

Actually this was just another example of BP's talent for: 'Open Mouth - insert foot.' The chose the 5,000 BPD number as the midrange of the numbers they were given

It is actually one of the dumbest rant I have come across for a while.. Did you miss the conference(s) where Adm Allen confirmed that all the estimate are from the government flow estimate group??? there is a lot of thing to rant against BP but the flow estimation is not one of it.. From BP perspective, any number they publish is bad for the court case/negotiation later for the per bbl penalty. So why would they want to be in the estimation game.. Give it a rest..

The chose the 5,000 BPD number as the midrange of the numbers they were given.

Do you have a cite for that? Because I don't recall anything of the kind. The 5,000 bpd estimate was issued by the government very early on; the only lower estimate was made--also by the government--a few days previously, and that was 1,000 bpd, quickly recognized as invalid.

So I'm not sure how 5,000 bpd could be said to have been in "the midrange of the numbers [BP] were given." At the time the 5,000 bpd estimate was made, it was the highest that had been issued. Not long after that, much higher estimates began to be made by nongovernment analysts--up to 100,000 bpd--and BP continued to stick with 5,000 bpd, until sometime later when a government panel of experts came out with higher ones, but not as high as the nongovernment guys. BP didn't challenge the higher government estimates, nor did it challenge subsequent still higher government estimates.

There was no point, in other words, when 5,000 bpd was in a "midrange" of any estimates, government or otherwise.

Sure, Mikey, it was all the gummit's fault. You got it from reliable sources, too, huh? Oh, my.

As predictable as a 6 year old blaming it all on his little sister.

And with as much credibility, too.

You might wish to ask Capt Nguyen about that. IIRC he said something to the effect that if you start giving commands, "you own it". By that standard, Admiral Allen has owned it since he took over as NIC.

Too bad they didn't ask about the Mid-May top kill request from BP to the government that Chu alluded to in his first interview with the New York Times. It was eventually tried after considerable delay on Memorial Day weekend without cutting off the riser.

And given that the well has proven its integrity, what made anyone think there was a subterranian blowout, other than Matt Simmons and DougR? Does the administration do everything by polling?

Bruce, your desire to blame Chu for everything has been on full display for a long time now.

Go ahead and have your anti-govt rants. You're no different from the DougRs and Alexs in that regard.

P.S. Ixtoc blew out after they capped it making containment impossible and it leaked for 10 months. That's a pretty good reason to be cautious.

Worried that sovereign immunity will destroy your big payday?

There is no payday in this for me. I have no involvement with anyone involved in this mess in any way, shape or form. I'd never be here posting if I did.

I am more than happy to blame the govt. when they deserve it.

But I also know that if BP had not made such an inexcusable mess, the govt., big daddy, never would have had to come on the scene and supervise.

Also recall that the admin. took more of a hands off approach initially, and the anti-govt. crowd was howling that they needed to do more, that they needed to take control and tell BP what to do, etc. And of course once they did, the howling is that the govt. did too much. I understand now that it does not matter what they do. These folks will always complain.

Edit: removed snark

I seem to recall during the Health Care Reform debate that NPR asked a top congressional Republican if the party would support the plan if it consisted entirely of Republican suggestions to date, and he said no, they'd never hand Obama such a victory. That's pretty much when I threw in the towel.

I'll back up what syncro says here, even tho I'm probably more of a limited gov't type. I try to reserve judgement, but I did feel like the gov't could've shown more involvement. But what involvement that could've, should've been, I have no idea. We'd all like to have seen this handled better. But armchair quarterbacking is a helluva lot easier than actually making risky decisions potentially impacting millions of livelihoods. Caution is not a bad rule to go by, when in unfamiliar territory.

There's folks here who've done dangerous jobs far longer than I ever have. I can't speak for them. From the work I have done, I'll say this, I've had my share of close calls. I won't be the one to criticise someone for being cautious.

And given that the well has proven its integrity, what made anyone think there was a subterranian blowout, other than Matt Simmons and DougR?


Nope that is wrong. They do not believe they have proven the well has integrity. They don't know the well has integrity and they're going to s great deal of trouble because the integrity of the wellbore liner is still unknown.

From the 8/30/10 press briefing

Thad Allen: I have no regrets. This entire response has kind of revealed itself in steps. Every step we have taken we have gained more information. And it's informed the next step. The failure of the top kill, the dynamic kill actually taught us a lot about the pressure inside the well and led us to do a complete exploration on what the loss of press was inside the well. It could have been attributed to some kind of a breach of the casing. Or it could have been due to reservoir depletion.

After exhaustive discussions between the science team and the BP engineers, we now attribute that most likely to reservoir depletion. A lot of things aren't known until you actually get physical evidence and readings from inside these pipes. That's the reason the well integrity test was important. The injectivity test was important, and the ambient pressure test is important.

We know that the pore pressure rebuilds once the well is shut in. We've seen it in action after the static kill. So the concern about a breech was due to a pressure differential less than or equal to the initial level of depletion, before the rebound while shut-in. Which means they had the FLOW STOPPED on Memorial Day weekend and failed to top off the mud in the well as the shut-in pressure rose. Proof positive that had they done those two extra steps Chu told the NYT about, the top kill would have worked. Except Chu would not allow BP to do those steps!! Oooops Steven, you will eventually be the Goat of the Gulf Oil Spill!

I'm pretty sure that on an individual basis BP and/or TO personnel will be the goats, Bruce. Even if you want to assign some blame to Chu, he didn't cause the blowout.

This is a response to an earlier beachmommy post, from which I have disconnected it so as not to impose it on her.

I will address this to any others who may choose to read it.

But I will warn you ahead of time, it's a rant.

There are true sexual predators with whom we are not yet equipped to work effectively. I don't know where this particular individual (about whom beachmommy is concerned) belongs in the spectrum, but those true predators need such controls as civil confinement, until we can understand them better.

The vast majority of offenders are NOT predators and are eminently treatable (figures vary some from study to study, but the number I use, which is fairly conservative, in my opinion, is that about 15-20% of the non-predators, which is a very small percentage of the total number of offenders, will commit another offense after they've been apprehended and processed through the criminal justice system. Unfortunately many of us react so strongly that we aren't able to, let alone desirous of, parsing the difference. I understand that, and when we have been personally touched by this kind of betrayal it is especially hard.

But the facts are hard to ignore when we look at them, instead of choosing to ignore them because of the inconvenient damping effect they might have on our "righteous outrage" (for which read "this is a safe opportunity to vent that anger I've always felt too inhibited to express previously about issues that have nothing to do with this").

There are those offenders, some of whom commit sexual offenses, who have been very effectively created by society, by us allowing their own victimization of whatever sort to be inadequately addressed, then by not understanding the source of their resulting behavior and effectively addressing it, while they are still children, but rather by compounding it with ever more repressive measures until they start fighting back, often well into adulthood.

They do not victimize others simply because they have been victimized. It is a lot more complex than that.

These people, are the ones for which we as a society are responsible. We have shaped them into the distorted images of a human being they can become. While they are still children, they have virtually no control over their own lives, and therefore are unprotected against all the damage society can induce in them by virtue of its neglect and/or maltreatment.

While we can and should hold them responsible for their behavior as adults, who in society is stepping up to take responsibility for the lives we've damaged, by not being willing to ask the questions, challenge the beliefs, ensure the safety, or pay for the measures needed to help those who were damaged as children while it's still easiest to help them.

Then, when they become adults and are ill-equipped in either skills or understanding to mitigate the damage that has been imposed upon them, but instead have to meet the demands of society with the broken tools we have provided, we don't even say "sorry." We instead attack them for being the inconvenience to us that they are, or, if they should injure someone else, punish them, while, if they should, in the process of seeking a modicum of comfort for themselves unknowingly, or out of desperation, turn to someone who is vulnerable, we "righteously" call down the wrath of God upon them, without even pausing to ask why someone who started out as an innocent child could end up hurting someone else like this.

Thus we begin the process of creating new grist for the mill by allowing them to vent their problems upon their children. Instead of promoting healing we insert sand into the wounds, then put a bandaid on them.

How many of us stop to think about how we would feel if it were our child, or ourselves when we were children, in the foster family system, or a residential children's facility, or a juvenile detention center.

Children are remarkably resilient, but they, like we, can be overloaded, and when their parents aren't able, for whatever reason, to attend to their needs, why do we so often let them rot on the vine, and then complain if they contaminate society when they grow up?

Fortunately some children survive this and become better than we have any right to expect. But then we too often point to them and say to the ones who haven't survived, "why haven't you turned out like them."

Blaming the victim is a very popular exercise.

If you want to learn about the early stages of this destructive process, google "The Trouble With Evan."

I would like to see links for these studies, David. I've worked with both sides, as well, and don't remember seeing a 15% recidivism rate.

Although I guess, first of all, what's your definition of a predator versus an offender? One and done?

I don't know the answer to your question, but I know the answer to the problem. Chemical Castration.

I'm going to try to answer that in the first five following paragraphs so that you don't feel obliged to read the rest (although it's offered for extra credits).

Remember I said 15-20%.

The CSOM (http://www.csom.org/faq/index.html - under "Managing Sex Offenders") numbers are a little different, going to 24%, with the qualification that since not all assaults are reported, it is difficult to be sure of any number (more below on that).

I find it useful to think of sex offenses on a continuum ranging from what are generally considered to be relatively minor ones such as leering and whistling at the woman across the street, nudging the guy next to you and saying emphatically "She wants me!" then citing the fact that she looked at you, or didn't look at you, as the case may be, as evidence that she has the hots for you.

Then the spectrum continues through the most commonly seen criminal offenses on to the pedophiles (those whose sexual preference is for children, and have difficulty controlling their desires) who can have hundreds of victims, and the serial rapists and killers, including the sadistic and ritualistic killers.

The predators are at the latter end of the spectrum, and have little control over their behavior, and we don't yet fully understand how to heal them, let alone make them safe (although we can, if we handle it right, keep the community safe from the ones we've identified), while the vast majority of offenders occupy the vast majority of the rest of the spectrum. These cases, while having in common the fact that somebody got hurt (and usually a whole number of people to varying degrees, not least of all the offender), nevertheless may vary in severity and virtually every other measure from each other, in bewildering variety.

This portion of the spectrum vary considerably in amenability to treatment. Some of them are so damaged and dysfunctional that it is hard to know where to start, some of them appear to have done the bulk of the work before they ever get to me, but in every case I work with them until they want to and do take responsibility for their actions, and want to be held accountable for them, while finding healthier ways to meet their needs (see below). Numbers, and legal definitions of the offenses have very little to do with their amenability to, and success with, treatment.

It is important to remember a couple complicating factors also. The studies are almost exclusively done on incarcerated offenders, who are, of course, skewed towards the worst end of the spectrum, while the people out on the street include, at any given time, only formerly incarcerated populations who tend on average to be of less concern because of their release at the end of shorter terms. Meanwhile, those out on the street also disproportionately include the ones who have served only local time, ranging from weekends in jail, up to a year in jail, and those who haven't served any time at all Again, these are the less dangerous offenders.

Can one of the most dangerous of the population be out on the streets. Certainly, which is what beachmommy and her neighbors are understandably concerned about in the case she's focusing on.

So, unlike the most studied part of the population (by virtue of being easier to gather data on, especially post release, which is the recidivism data we're interested in), the population who are out on the street, with whom I'm working on an outpatient basis are, on average far less risky, and more amenable to treatment.

It is important to remember also that the treatment field is evolving. When I started, we were just moving out of the harsh, in-your-face, confrontational style of treatment which required offenders to acknowledge that they were offenders first and foremost, and would always be at risk of reoffending, and therefore would always pose a danger to society. This was a one size fits all, power and control method of treatment that, not surprisingly saw a lot of failures.

At that time the treatment model was shifting to a relapse control model which had been ported over almost in its entirety from the substance abuse model of treatment. This was a tremendous advance on the previous mode of treatment, but a lot of us were somewhat uncomfortable with it, in part because there is no evidence that I am aware of which suggests there is a biochemical component to sexual offenses, and very little evidence that recidivism was the prime concern.

Time to address the chemical castration issue. Sex offenses are not about sex. They use sex as a tool. If I build a wood frame house, I'm not called a hammerer, that's just one of the tools I use. Sex offenses are about all of the needs for which sex is a symbol in our society.

When we chemically, or in other ways, castrate a person, we may well reduce their interest in sex, but since that isn't the motivator it doesn't necessarily reduce our desire to commit harm on others. Interestingly SSRI's show some promise of being of help, apparently because there is a reduction of compulsive behavior, but that only addresses the issue of pedophiles and anti-social predators, which are the smallest part of the offender population even though they create a disproportionate number of victims. We rarely seen them in the out-patient population.

Those needs include: needing to be intimate, needing to feel valued, needing to feel powerful, needing to feel safe, needing to feel competent, needing to feel accepted, needing to feel loved, etc., etc., etc. All of these are legitimate needs, but when we attempt to meet one or more of those needs via a sexual offense we are not only engaged in a futile effort, but a counter-productive effort.

When we try to meet our needs without considering the impact of our behavior on others who are affected by it, we are being abusive to that person or persons. When we use sexualized contact to achieve that end we are committing sexual abuse.

This is the ethic I try to apply to my work and to my personal life. It revolves around the concept of treating people with respect, and ensuring that I do whatever I can to help them feel safe. I work for victims (no, not to create them, but to help them find healing), and take that very seriously. Fortunately, but not surprisingly, when you think it through, what is best for victims is also best for offenders and what is best for offenders is also best for victims. When we believe there is a conflict, we're not looking at it right (google the Restorative Justice model of treatment)

As a consequence many of us believe that we are doing a better job now by helping offenders understand the answers to three questions. First, what happened, which is not nearly as simple as it sounds. Briefly it includes the offense itself, what the relationship was previous to the offense between the offender and the victim, what was going on in the offender's life just before the offense, what the offender was trying to achieve via the offense, and what the impact of the offense was on the victim, the offender, and anyone else affected, including the community.

The second question is why it happened. Fundamentally, what needs was the offender trying to meet, why they chose this particular approach, and how they could meet those needs in more healthy ways, because once we've answered that third question in a manner which is viable and adequate for the offender, the reality that healthy people have no desire, let alone need, to hurt others kicks in.

What I find is that the vast majority of people are not only willing, but eager, in spite of their skepticism about how others will behave, and the fear that generates, to take responsibility for their actions, once they fully understand them and know what they mean and don't mean, and then will accept APPROPRIATE, not disproportionate, consequences for their actions (interestingly enough many, if not most of them, would consider harsher consequences more appropriate than others would, but that is primarily a product of their lack of understanding of their offense).

the pedophiles (those whose sexual preference is for children, and have difficulty controlling their desires)

Very interesting stuff, David. Just to clarify something, it's my understanding that clinically, a pedophile is defined as a person who is sexually attracted to prepubertal children. Is that correct? In other words, an adult who goes after an adolescent is not be a pedophile clinically speaking. It's also my understanding that pedophilia is classified as a sexual disorder, whereas an adult man's attraction to young but postpubescent girls (or boys) is considered sexually normal (albeit psychologically maladjusted, at least in this society, if he acts on that attraction).

Good questions.

That is essentially correct. Pedophilia involves a primary attraction to young children.

The term for someone who is attracted primarily to adolescents is a hebephile.

There are several complications here. None of these are illegal if not acted upon, and there is reason to believe that not all those who are primarily attracted to either adolescents or prepubertal children act upon this attraction.

But that shouldn't be too surprising because, while I'm sexually attracted to adult women (don't panic!) I wouldn't rape every one I come across, even if I could (sigh...), and there are plenty of people who never act on their sexual feelings. And we can't automatically label that as dysfunctional.

The other issue here is that sexual preference is rarely a clearcut issue. We all can find members of each of these groups sexually attractive in certain circumstances. I suspect that is part of the reason why we get so worked up about these issues and spend so much time trying to label others. I believe that a lot of us are uneasy about our sexual preferences and/or experiences and don't want to risk discovery of that "problem." Thus we may often want to direct attention to others.

Which is not to discount understandable anxiety, fear, and/or anger, especially when we or someone we care about has been previously harmed.

Then there are the consensual teen encounters. I agree, in large part, with others who have pointed out that society has gone too far in automatically labeling those encounters as crimes, then requiring registration upon conviction.

I also have serious problems with labeling child sexual behavior as a crime, let alone requiring juveniles to register.

In both these cases we have to look carefully at what happened, they are neither automatically crimes, nor automatically not crimes, the determination depends upon a number of factors.

Come On People!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The term for someone who is attracted primarily to adolescents is a hebephile.

Is that actually classified as a sexual disorder, as pedophilia is? (It sounds even worse, but I assume the "hebe" part refers to the goddess of youth--Greek, right?) And does the diagnosis depend on lack of attraction to adults? Because attraction to adolescents per se is awfully common, isn't it?

I see "pedophile" used very loosely to refer to any adult who has sexual contact with a young person, and it seems to me that's unfortunate.

I don't have my DSM IVr with me so I can't answer that part of the question offhand.

Yes, Hebe is the reference, and all of these paraphilias involve a primary attraction to that part of the population, or focus of attention, not necessarily excluding other sexual interests, but as with most sexual foci, it is possible for it to trigger pretty obsessive attention, if there aren't some balancing behaviors.

Yes, one of the problems with the labels that are thrown around is that they do create a lot of misunderstanding that confuses rather than clarifies the issues and often, when people try to clarify the terms they may be accused of sympathizing with the offenders or not holding them adequately responsible.

while I'm sexually attracted to adult women (don't panic!) I wouldn't rape every one I come across, even if I could (sigh...)

Your "sigh" makes it sound like you would if you could ... I find that disconcerting and perhaps a bit misogynistic. Please 'splain. Otherwise you're going in the "yuck" file....

Please 'splain. Otherwise you're going in the "yuck" file

I fear this isn't going to end well.

Note to Dave and our other logorrhea-sufferers: You are not in your home here. You are not in a bar. You're on the internet, typing words that will last as long as electricity. Have a care.

I'm going to hope that his "sigh" was an expression of lamenting diminishing physical ability with age, rather than anything too abhorrent. However I did a bit of a double take on first reading. Attempts at humour close to such subjects are not the smartest strategy.

Sorry~I can't do the long post thing as I explained earlier, but don't worry ever about imposing or offending me, I am a big girl.........I do appreciate the sentiment. First, after 2 yrs of research and meeting with Dr. Murphy, rape crisis and numerous other therapist and child advocates I don't buy the recidivision rate percentage. Not sure if you know Dr. Murphy, but he's cited in numerous research with Anna Salter (I think that's her name) and has writtne wuite a bit on the subject and to me one is more than enough (unless it's a teenager who is 18 and his GF who is 16, that to me is not an offender or a predator). I just believe with anyone who rapes a child, one is enough and I don't really care if they lose their freedom or for that fact anything else to be blunt. FYI~I have always felt this way, watching a child lose their sense of security and insist I carry a glock 24/7, lose their innocence and peace of mind just reinforced it.

(unless it's a teenager who is 18 and his GF who is 16, that to me is not an offender or a predator)

I know someone who's son is in that situation. Totally consensual but he spent two years in jail and is permanently branded a sex offender. It's very difficult to get a job, rent an apartment/house, etc. with that on your background check.

I'm sorry for your friend's son, that is an abuse of the statutes IMO when it's consentual (hell, any BF I had when I was 17 would be locked up under those), but I'd hope most ppl do what I do and chekc the jacket of the offender to find out his crime, however I had never pulled one up that had such a current arrest as the one I posted about last night, but then again since I moved here there were none on the Island, but where I lived before there were about 3 in the 5 mile raidus and all were stat rapes with consent.

A situation which would be completely legal in the UK. What would happen to a Mexican and his 14 year old wife (completely legal) visited the US? This is one of the situations when blanket rules are failures.


I haven't followed this thread to its source, but the 14 y/o I was has to shout at the instantaneous shut down I experienced when she turned 18. Pisses me off to this day. Damn, you, society! *shakes fist in futility*

Thank you for your grace.

I am profoundly sensitive to, and respectful of, your views on these issues.

Please understand that I am not trying to ram my views down your throat, only inviting you to consider my input, then compare it with what else you know and can find out on these issues, so that you can reach the perspective that works best for you. And if you want to beat the crap out of me and my views, please have at it, because it is only beneficial to me and to the truth to have my views tested and challenged.

Very briefly I know of Anna Salter, and know her to be a highly respected authority (and novelist) in this field.

I don't remember running across mention of Dr. Murphy, but a quick review of two websites to which he has apparently attached his name reveals the likelihood that he and I are, for the most part, on the same page.

I would be very surprised, after scanning those pages, to hear Dr. Murphy agree with you on the futility of treating offenders since, as with me, he appears to be profoundly dedicated to the prevention and amelioration of child abuse in all its many forms, and has joined in generating some sex offender management guidelines (https://www.sworps.tennessee.edu/children/jtf/child_sex_abuse.html and http://www.csom.org/pubs/cap/4/4_0.htm#sect_4_1) which clearly see treatment of both juveniles and adults as not only necessary but useful.

I will just mention further that, while it is understandable that people get very riled and upset when they come up against these behaviors or the prospect of these crimes, nevertheless we need to be careful to consider whether our reactions are serving the best interests of those we want most to protect.

One quick example. I was called to assist with the husband of a rape victim who was fully prepared to go out and find the rapist and kill him. I asked him simply how his wife would feel if she heard that he was going to go do that, and whether that was the best way for him to help her, or was he motivated more by a need to do something, anything, rather than feel helpless and useless. When I helped him understand that those were false choices, he was in a far better position to be supportive of his wife and protect her and himself from further harm.

How we help our loved ones (and sometimes ourselves) most is not by trying to protect them from all harm, because we can't, but by helping them learn how to protect themselves as best they reasonably can, without being abusive of others, but then deal with traumatic experiences they fail to avoid, in ways that free them from being victims, help them survive, and then, if possible, reach the point where they can transform their lives in ways that help them become better and stronger than they could ever have been if they hadn't experienced that trauma.

What a gift that would be.

OK, I asked for links to these studies and you gave me an example of one; their number goes as high as 24% but acknowledges it could be higher due to under-reporting. Keeping in mind here the victims reticence to step forward, I would think that the number could be significantly higher. No other studies, though?

It's your job (and the rest of your lot) to determine the severity of their compulsions and to provide alternatives for coping and, I would guess, risk reduction. That's awesome and I'm grateful we have folks willing to do that work -- it's tough. But BeachMommy has a very valid point -- it's not up to the victims or their loved ones to try to analyze what and why something's been done to better understand. Dealing with a child who's been traumatized in that way leaves little emotional room to sit quietly in an attempt to understand why. These children will never, ever forget what's been done to them and, if they do, it's not healthy.

I asked if you differentiate the offender from the predator but the number of times they've acted on their impulses. Given that you include cat-callers as sexual offenders gives me a bit of pause, perhaps because I see that mainly as problem due to lack of manners and is not criminal to my knowledge.

A person who acts out sexually with children has an extra layer of psychopathology, IMO, and one that's not as easily treated. Some fetishes are very difficult to break, especially when they lead to sexual gratification and when that gratification only comes in that particular circumstance.

That being said, I was really hoping you would offer an apology to BeachMommy for being presumptuous about her lack of experience in this area. I think I would've been angry if I were her.

Well, kiddies, the BOP has a bent latching indicator on the bottom. What do they do now? They're going to be flying blind unless there is some really clever ROV operator to bend it back.

Well, it's no big deal. The probe is attached right at the top of the internal mechanism. They will watch the connection as it rises as they are doing now.

What is occurring with the hose pumping (?? antifreeze) into a pipe? Sorry I just dont know what to call that part. But it has large bolts, and an ROV is seen in one webcam hovering and working on the equipment. Really impressed with the ROV operations in this entire over the months event. Very precise and delicate efforts plus the ROVs almost seem to have personalities. Just wish the videos could be clear all the time.

Actually, throughout this sordid affair, there probably has been a clear beneficiary if such could be said, and that would be all the free exposure that the ROV manufacturers Sales Departments could wish for (Oceaneering etc.).

Great photo of the 13 oil workers, carefully holding hands as they awaited rescue.

Fire out, no sheen visible at Gulf oil platform.

Interesting shot rainy…thanks. Hard to tell but it doesn’t look like many are wearing survival suits. Not critical given the water temp this time of the year. Hypothermia is always possible but they probably knew they weren’t going to be in the water very long.

Most offshore hands take a certified offshore survival course. Last time I was certified was around 5 years ago. We practiced with the survival suits even though most GOM rigs didn’t have them at that time. Mandatory in the N. Sea … I was getting the international cert. Was the worse experience of the course. Had to take it off and put it back on while in the pool. That’s where they also showed us how to do the daisy chain you see in that picture. Swallowed so much water I swear I could taste chlorine for three days. On the way home I had to stop on the side of the highway and vomit. Of course with my luck a cop saw me, pulled over and wanted to give me a sobriety test. Told him what I had been doing and showed him my wet clothes in my offshore bag. He wasn’t sure so I told him that if he made me stand there any longer I would puke on him next (said it with the best smile I could muster). Fortunately he saw the humor of it and let me leave.

The truly fun part was the HUET certification: underwater escape from a chopper. Just like the “Topgun” movie: strapped us in to a chopper shell and then flip it upside down and dropped it into a swimming pool. To make it more fun they had us wear blackout helmets so we couldn’t see…had to release from the harness and pop the cabin door by feel only. You had two tries to make it out. Otherwise you had to redo the entire 3-day course. All I could think about was having to do the survival suit again…color me very motivated. Trivia: most offshore workers die in chopper crashes and not on the rig. A little more trivia: almost no one ever survives a chopper crash. Makes the HUET cert a tad superfluous but that’s the rule.

Ahhh - HUET cert..

A quick one minute video for those unfamiliar... notice the roll for some disorientation...


Sounds like you took your class at TAMU Galveston. I took my first class there and recently recertified with just the 1-day HUET portion in Brookshire, TX. They didn't do the gumby suit and have a cool simulator for the HUET. Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM15y8Rcfc8&feature=related

The gumby suit was fine until they wanted us to take it off and put it back on while in the pool. That was VERY exhausting. I guess it teaches the lesson that if you need it you better have it on before you get in the water.

This "rig explosion" story today has had virtually all reported "facts" turn out to be wrong. I think the only things they got consistently right were the platform owner and the number of people involved.

es -- Yep...did my first cert at Galveston and the second in Lafayette. Lafayette was the 3-day affair that included fire fighting. Now that you mention it maybe that's why they make us do it in the water...teach us a lesson. You know rig hands: they wouldn't want to look stupid standing there like Gumby waiting to see if they had to ditch. So they might just hold them until too late.

And no fair: they guys in the video didn't have to wear blackout helmets. And I did the Galveston cert in an outdoor unheated pool in November. And had to do it twice because the dummy next to me kicked his legs getting out and broke my hand hold. So I "french fried": had to pull myself up to the top of the cage to breath.

story I heard when I was in college:

Helio crashed on the way out to the rig. Rescued, taken back to shore, to catch the next flight out. Finally got to the rig, got chewed out for being late.

I don't know if it's a true story or not, but I have no reason to doubt it. Stuck with me.

13 oil workers, carefully holding hands

Nice. Apparently there were only 12 immersion suits, so one guy had to go without, but the others held him up. I think he may be the 12th guy to the right, between two guys wearing the suits.

Maybe, I would be asking if someone got 40 silver dollars recently. Just kidding, I am GLAD all hands are accounted for and alive. No serious injury.

Edit: and if someone kissed me, I would go off.

Thank you SL! - I kept counting 12 ";-^) Now I see that wet-head to the right. g

swifty -- Maybe those suits are different then then one I trained in. It was a full body suit in dayglow orange. It's hard to tell but it looks like at lot of blue jeans. Also think I see a few short shirt sleeves. They do appear to be wearing May West jackets though.

Maybe we'll see some more shots as they were plucked out.

They do appear to be wearing May West jackets though.

Well, I sure have no idea what immersion suits look like when folks in the water have 'em on; it's just that all the reports said they were wearing 'em, so I assumed the suits look like what's in the photo. But you're right, they don't look like orange full-body suits. Whatever they had on, it kept them alive--including the dude who had to go without--so thank God for that. Did your training include everybody getting together and hanging onto each other, or was that their idea?

swifty -- could be some light weight version for the GOM. When it was described as a Gumby suit above that was no exaggeration. You do look like a giant day glow orange Pillsbury doughboy. But even with a light weight suit I would think they would still be day glow orange...a big plus when a chopper is trying to spot you from 3,000'. Not a big deal either way...in the world of MSM misreporting it would be rather minor.

Yep...had us do a chain to move in a particular direction and then form a circle when static. Any badly injured would be put in the middle. Maybe they strung out when they heard the chopper coming: everyone one wanted a good photo for their scrap book.

The "Gumby" suits are bright orange to make it easier to spot by search and rescue teams. They are not wearing these. But most other "facts" of the story were wrong in news articles for many hours yesterday, too.

Normally you would huddle up to help keep warm. Or link arms in a circle facing outward so you could kick to make a white circle of splashes when search planes are overhead. Makes a dark spot with an orange life jacket ring and a white splash ring.

In this picture it looks like they are all ready to be picked up so they are out of formation but still keeping together. I would probably prefer holding someone's life jacket with one hand and letting someone else hold mine. Then I would still have one hand free.

Really glad everyone made it out.

However I have to ask this question...

"There were no serious injuries among the platform's rescued 13 crew members, who were wearing survival suits when they were plucked out of the water. They were being evaluated at Terrebone General Hospital, officials said"

I am not an expert, but looks to me from that pic like a jeans and t-shirt day with life vests. Not the "Gumby Suits"

Any ideas?

Doug -- Not sure what the status is now but a few years ago most GOM didn't have survival suits on board. I suppose the bigger question is why they weren't in a capsule. All platforms are required to have them. Typially they hang on opposite sides in case fire prevents getting to one. They also often have small open rafts on board. There's going to be a little explanation needed to explain why they went into the water and not a boat.

ChuckV - Any insights as to how Transocean came to the conclusion that (quoting from page 6 Loss of Primary Well Control)?

Estimate of 2 bbls nitrogen cement in shoe track - normally would pump all into annulus

It doesn't take much misplacement of the cement in the shoe track to screw up the cementing job.

Edit - Lookee, Lookee at I what I stumbled across on the Joint Investigation site http://www.deepwaterinvestigation.com/go/doc/3043/890467/

Cement Job on 7" Casing Flow-in vs. Flow-out!!!


I wrote the response below before you did the edit. Your link gives flow rates vs. time. Did you integrate the data and somehow get your answer?

I have no idea what evidence Transocean may have had that 2 bbls of the nitrogen-foamed cement ended up in the shoe track.

If the track was filled with 16.7 ppg cement after pumping, I suppose it might have happened in closing the float collar flapper valves. In reducing pressure in the production casing to cause back flow for valve closing, some cement that was below the float collar would end up above it, and some cement that was not in the shoe track would end up in it. (As a point of reference, 2 bbls in the shoe track would occupy a length a bit over 54-1/2 ft.)

For my own amusement, I've continued to chip away at this production casing cement placement thing. Just a couple hours ago I discovered that you can calculate top of cement (TOC) for the production casing at 17,300 ft (+/- a foot) using only numbers given in the 18 April Halliburton Production Casing Design Report. I'll outline how, if you or NippleUp are interested.


"I'll outline how, if you or NippleUp are interested."



Certainly, I would be interested.

I assume you are using geometry to calculate hole volumes. One thing that comes in handy is the Haliburton Red Book which lists all sorts of pipe and hole size volumes per lineal foot. In other words, I cheat.

I've not checked it out but there is an electronic version here:


It's huge file so don't bother unless you got time.



Here's how I calculated top of cement (TOC) to be 17,300 (+/- 1) ft for the production casing using Halliburton data. I used Section 1.5, Wellbore Geometry, in the 18 April 10 Production Casing Design Report.


The tabulation in Section 1.5 gives hole diameters vs. measured depths at irregular intervals over a range of depths down to 18,305 ft. I used the data between 17,168 ft MD (bottom of the 9-7/8" liner) and 18,305 ft MD (1 ft below the production casing shoe) to calculate the volume of the hole it defined. (I broke out the intervals between measurements and calculated a volume for each interval using the average hole diameter for that interval. I then added up all the volumes. Crude numerical integration.)

I found the hole volume to be 114 bbls.

I then calculated the portion of the hole volume occupied by the production casing (54 bbls) and subtracted it from 114 bbls. The result, 60 bbls, just happened to equal the volume of cement pumped. I thought that interesting. Sixty barrels in annular space, TOC 17,168 ft, none in the casing. What happens to the cement level if 7 bbls is removed from the annular space and put into the casing shoe track? I calculated the change in TOC for removal of 7 bbls to be 133 ft. That puts the new TOC at 17,168 + 133, or 17,301 ft MD.

So there's a method that gives the "right" TOC, but accounts for only a foot below the 7" shoe, and not the rathole volume we estimated earlier at 4.4 bbls.


The flow in/out discrepancy (80 bbls) was raised by one of the panel members in the hearing. He did not get a a satisfactory answer that I heard. The response was, "the report from the pit room was full returns."

I think the answer is; they rely on the pit levels for monitoring returns. Somebody (don't recall who) commented on this a few days ago.

From my experience, these in line flow meters are not reliable. The ones I've messed with are simply a paddle in the flowline. Useful for a first approximation of flow rates but not precise. They require calibration often and are prone to getting plugged with lost circulation material. I assume the Deep Water Horizon flow meters were not calibrated.


Can you give me an idea about the conditions in the flow path right at the point where they inject the nitrogen? Obviously, they have to have some pumping pressure, so it is not at STP conditions as inferred by 22,000 scf. But at standard conditions, 22,000 cu ft is a whole bunch of barrels (3918). So at a pumping rate of 4 bpm, it would take a really long time to git 'er done.

I think my peeps (the fifth graders) could visualize the problem this way. Buy one of those new McDonald's strawberry banana smoothies (for the servings of fruit!) and save the clear plastic glass and straw. Fill it with water and blow on the straw. Watch the surface level rise. Experiment with varing the depth of the straw. Is it easier to blow if the straw is at a shallower depth? Got to keep the brainpower sharp if we're to keep kicking ass, as the Prez is wont to say!

I looked at the article about using nitrified cement using reverse flow. I'd say you'd have a much, much better idea where TOC is if you pushed the whole thing down to TOC with incompressible mud, rather than from the bottom up!! So I would not accept that technique as a valid confirmation of the forward flow case.


The details of the process are as much a mystery to me as they are to you. I've found a couple simple block diagrams of the foaming process, but they give no indication of pressure anywhere. The most detailed of the diagrams I've found is on Slide 18 here:


Maybe some of the other slides in that presentation will be of more use to you than they were to me.

The article about reverse cementing with foamed cement, if nothing else, provided a real-world example where foamed cement was used hot
(< 400F), and deep (<21,000 ft).


WTH was Enterprise1 just looking at? It looked like he was in a cave.

I vote next blowout we get voice narrations from the ROV operators.

"Folks, I have no idea what that was either."
"Damn it! I just dropped my wand.
Folks, that item we're staring at laying on the bottom, that's my wand, I just dropped it. We're going to be staring at it for a few hours."
"All that swirling stuff is just Skandi1 clownin' around, doin' donuts, generally makin' a mess as he usually does.
Hey! Skandi1, knock it off, will ya? We can't see anything, we can't stare at my wand. And you're scaring the audience."
"Sorry folks, I don't know what that was, I had to run to the privy."

You know they want to.

Sorry if that's been suggested already.

I would pay good money to hear narration from the ROV operators. Especially since Rovman explained that they all had a wacky sense of humor. I can understand why they'd have to, given the exceedingly weird stuff they're doing; that has to be one of the strangest jobs on the planet and one of the most unusual sets of skills. They utterly fascinate me.

Imagine all the nerdy laughs in the room when one ROV operator says, "I just managed to put it in the hole!" "That's what he said!" ::massive nerd laughter::

Looks like he was taking a gander up inside the capping stack.
Now he's probing it with a rod.

"Folks, I'm poking it with a stick, just for fun, because, well, because I'm weird."

Question: What does the BOP weigh in saltwater?
If a BOP weighs around a million pounds (per Admiral), how much does it weigh in the ocean?
Thanks in advance.

I think this BOP displaces about 10% of it's total weight in water. Try .9 million weight submerged.

Thanks Guy ;-)

When an object is submerged it experiences a upward force called buoyancy. The buoyancy force is equal to the weight of the water the object displaces, so you have to calculate the volume of the drill string and connector. Say a 10-pound object displaces an amount of water that weighs two pounds, the apparent weight of the object under water is eight pounds.

Did anything happen while I was asleep?

Enterprise ROV1 been poking the butt end of the old stacking cap with a long thin wand. May be practicing to be a dental hygenist. HOS ROV2 staring at his shorter wand. May have wand envy. Q4000 ROV1 pixelated as always. Gives me a headache.
Q4000 ROV2 threatening to do something hydraulic. Probably just teasing.


Eureka, he's got it.

I think this BOP displaces about 10% of it's total weight in water. Try .9 million weight submerged.

BOP is pretty much all steel. Steel has a specific gravity of 7.85 Seawater 1.025 Thus the BOP Will weight (7.85 - 1.025)/7.85 = 0.87 So it's weight when immersed in seawater is about 87% of its weight out of water.

Interesting article I'll coin it--Cry Baby Cry:

"BP Says Limits on Drilling Imperil Oil Spill Payouts"


About the time they finish up with the well, the action will shift to Judge Feldman's courtroom and the trial of the lawsuit against the moratorium.

Yes, that lawsuit still has to go to trial. All of the action before was just over injunctions. The govt. lost, and they lost badly from self-inflicted wounds.

After they lost before judge Feldman and the court of appeal on the injunction against the first moratorium, Salazar issued a second moratorium and rescinded the first.

Salazar did a poor job of putting together a sufficient record to support the first moratorium. For whatever reason, it was not put together with the care needed to survive a challenge before a politically hostile judge in a conservative district. There were defects in the record that would leave the moratorium vulnerable, and it was enjoined.

The courts were not happy with the game playing by Salazar with the scientists who signed off on the primary report submitted. Both courts were also somewhat disgusted with Salazar's attempts to game the system procedurally (in ways already discussed that would take to long to rehash). they are primed to slam him now based on the prior game playing and poor preparation. Besides, the judges do not believe the moratorium is warranted.

Last week, Feldman denied the govt.'s motion to dismiss the lawsuit filed against the first moratorium (the govt argued it is moot because of the 2nd moratorium). A couple of weeks earlier, the court of appeal issued an order instructing Feldman to consider at trial whether the second moratorium was based on new info that was not available when the first moratorium was issued. A determination is also to be made whether the second moratorium is just a sham and not really any different from the first one.

I cannot find the date for the trial, but i believe it is in September. The court of appeal and feldman appear to be setting the stage for finding that the second moratorium is a sham, and that it is therefore void, if the govt. loses the trial on the first moratorium, as it will. It will because the scientists who authored the report supporting the first moratorium have now come out stating that there is no longer any reason to have a DW drilling moratorium (assuming compliance with all new regs I believe, but don't know).

Salazar must know all of this and may try to head off a humiliating spectacle by announcing that the moratorium will be lifted ...oh, right about the time of trial maybe, or a few weeks after. Just a guess, pending more info.

edit corrected lots of errors

A note to David E. Brown, from an admirer,
If you'r a hammer then all solutions involve a nail.
I had a buddy who was a Doctor of Psychology. We took a look at the rising moon and both of us commented on it's huge size. He said that it looked large because it was near the horizon and we could compare it to things whose size we knew. I explained to him that it was the atmosphere, that it made it look so large as the atmosphere at such low angles acted as a lens and magnified it. I was right and he was wrong and he could never admit it. All interpretations must be psychological as that was his specialty.
I do enjoy your posts here, but I must say that I don't think that this is the forum to discuss things like pedophilia and child abuse. Are there not many other forums to do this? I do know that you were not the only one to post in that thread, but,TOD! Gimme a break!.

SharkMan, I checked your profile. Thumbs up on summarizing TOD's major value. Re: "Are there not many other forums to do this? I do know that you were not the only one to post in that thread, but,TOD! Gimme a break!" I have to agree despite being moderately in violation myself on occasion.

BTW, moon size illusion resource: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/831/why-does-the-moon-appear-bi...

Good point, good anecdote, with only one small problem. He was right. The moon does not look bigger due to atmospheric magnification, and it is indeed due to our ability to compare its size with other objects.

You can prove this to yourself trivially. The moon subtends very close to one degree of arc. Close to that of a thumb at arm's length. Next time you see the moon close to the horizon, stretch out your arm and match its apparent size with one of your fingers whilst stretching your arm out. Now sometime repeat the exercise when the moon is high in the sky. You may be surprised.

This is a very common idea that has had legs of its own for many many years. Indeed the first time I heard about the effect I heard that it was atmospheric effects, but in the end, you can trivially prove to yourself that the story is wrong, and a scientific urban legend.

Another, more potent way of realising this occurs if you are driving though some hills when a full moon has risen. Driving around some bends you will see the moon close to the edge of a hill, and it looks huge, but if you drive around the road some distance, you may get a clear view of the moon high in the sky, and it looks tiny, and then a minute later, huge again against the hillside.

I saw relevance in the thread comments to TOD although I must admit it was an absract relevance rather than a concrete one.

Some folks focus on exact problem under discussion which would be the concrete part of discussion. Obviousy, this had nothing to do with TOD. However, the approach and philosphy of how to find solutions to problems have everything to do with TOD. Some of the comments say get rid of the perp. Although noone in the thread said to get rid of BP, the philosophy applied to DWH would say to get rid of BP. Other comments suggested seeking to understand the unacceptable behavior in order to prevent its occurence in future. This philosophy applied to DWH would say to create an entity such as Rockman, Inc.

Also, it is tough to be consistent when discussing how to find solutions to one problem versus another. Sometimes, the problem behavior is so banal it leaves little room for hesitation regarding the solution.

Anyway, I thought the discussion added more light to the discussions focused on DWH.

And, I am an electrical engineer...

Plenty going on at the moment. Only wish I had the expertise to interpret it context. It appears that Q400 ROV 1 is watching them lower something back onto the well.

I do not see any bits of pipe sticking out of anywhere or any leaks. The control at depth is astonishing whatever they are doing! I think this must be preparing to attach the riser for the BOP lift.

Got to go somewhere now so will not see the latching on.

Clarke and Dawe on the US oil spill. Brilliant.


They have the BOP attached to the lifting tool and supposedly have unlatched it at the wellhead. However, when they started the lift, they ran hookload up to 600K and apparently didn't get the results they expected. Now they've let the load off again. I don't know whether the latch is stuck or something else, but it's worth watching right now.

Edit for update: There might be a slight scum on the moon pool water, but that could also be a video artifact. If it's real, it's probably just crud dislodged by wiggling the BOP. BOA Sub C ROV 1 is watching a H4, but it could be either the tool or the wellhead. Can't tell from the closeup view. Where are all you guys?

At ~720k pounds dead weight, they should have been pretty close to or just over the threshold for moving the waterborne beast. More head scratching, not enough data yet to diagnose much of anything from a desk chair.

619klbs pull but did not move not nary a smidgen.

It ain't gonna. At a guess we have 287 k lbs of the immersed drill string that was indicated on the gauge. The Admiral says the stack "weighs" 1 million pounds; assume that is about 870 k pounds submerged. He is allowing them to put an over pull of 80 k pounds to unstick the latch, if required. So, 287 + 870 + 80 = 1237 k pounds.

I took the Admiral's "million pounds" to be a dumbed-down, easy to remember estimate for Wolf Blitzer. But including the drill string, it's probably pretty close.

Snake. Not sure if Thad's million included the now removed Cap Stack

Good point.

Waiting for a sardonic comment from Bruce about Chu and his slide rule...

Sorry to introduce any redundancy , do they know if there is DP hanging from the BOP and how much it would weigh ?

They are assuming it is still hanging there. They have put down an elevator type pipe clamp to hold on to it. 3500 feet at say an average of 20 lb a foot; 70,000 lbs, I'm guessing.

BP Oil Spill Costs Hit $8 Billion as Rig Probe Ends

BP said the cost of dealing with its oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico had risen to $8 billion as the oil giant prepared to release the findings of an internal probe into the causes of the disaster.

BP published figures on Friday which showed that since it capped the well on July 15, it had spent around $90 million/day, in line with the spend rate while the well was gushing over 60,000 barrels per day into the sea.

Analysts had expected that BP's costs would fall off sharply after the well was sealed for good by drilling a relief well into the base of the blown out well and pumping it full of concrete.

However, a successful effort to install a temporary cap on the well delayed work on the relief well, which BP said on Friday was now likely to be completed in Mid September.

After this, the armada of rigs and ships, some of which cost $1 million a day to operate, working at the drill site can be stood down.

Snake et al. where is the hot stab connector for the latch on the BOP to Well Head connector? Or, are they using original control gear?

There are two of them, on the panel just above the wellhead connector. I watched Q4000's ROV stab first "Primary unlatch" then "Secondary unlatch". So the thing should be loose unless it's sticking.