Richard Heinberg: Coal in the United States

This is a post by Richard Heinberg, Senior Fellow of The Post Carbon Institute and author of Peak Everything, The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies, Powerdown: Options and Actions for a Post-Carbon World, and The Oil Depletion Protocol. A special thanks to Global Public Media for facilitating publication of Heinberg's work; GPM is a wonderful resource and plays an important role in peak oil activism. This article is a draft chapter from a forthcoming book, currently titled Coal’s Future/Earth’s Fate.

With oil and natural gas prices rising and coal prices still relatively low, the return of the US to a greater reliance on coal might seem inevitable. However, several recent reports suggest that coal reserves, which have shrunk dramatically during the past century, may still be overstated. Coal prices are likely to rise precipitously during the next two decades due to transport bottlenecks and higher transport costs, falling production trends in many current producing regions, and the lack of suitable new coalfields. This information should give pause to any agency planning new coal power plants today.

Because the US has the world’s largest coal reserves, it has sometimes been called "the Saudi Arabia of coal." It is the world’s second-largest coal producer, after China, but surpasses both the number three and four producer nations (India and Australia) by nearly a factor of three.

Wood was this nation’s primary fuel until the mid-1880s, when deforestation necessitated greater reliance on abundant coal resources. Coal then remained America’s main energy source until the 1930s, when it was overtaken by oil. Today coal fuels about 50 percent of US electricity production and provides about a quarter of the country’s total energy.

The US currently produces over a billion tons of coal per year, with quantities increasing annually. This is well over double the amount produced in 1960. However, due to a decline in the average amount of energy contained in each ton of coal produced (i.e., declining resource quality), the total amount of energy flowing into the US economy from coal is now falling, having peaked in 1998. This decline in energy content per unit of weight (also known as "heating value") amounts to more than 30 percent since 1955. It can partly be explained by the depletion of anthracite reserves and the nation’s increasing reliance on sub-bituminous coal and even lignite, a trend that began in the 1970s. But resource quality is declining even within each coal class.

Coal production in USA

While there are coal resources in many states, the main concentrations are in Appalachia, Illinois, Wyoming, and Montana (see map below). The 53 largest coalmines in the US, located in just a few states, account for almost 60 percent of total production.

Coal-bearing areas of the United States

Three states (Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and West Virginia) produce 52 percent of the higher-quality coal in the US. All three of these states seem to be in decline or plateau. Since the Northeast was the area of the nation earliest settled and was long a primary center for industrial manufacture, it is not surprising that the coal of this region was exploited preferentially. Today, Pennsylvania’s anthracite is almost gone. Mining companies there are now exploiting seams as thin as 28 inches. West Virginia, the second largest coal-producing state (after Wyoming), where much coal is surface mined in an environmentally ruinous practice known as mountaintop removal, is nearing its maximum production rate and will see declines commence within the next few years, according to a recent USGS report. (www.byronwine.com/files/coal.pdf)

The interior region—consisting of Illinois, Arkansas, Indiana, Kansas, Western Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Texas—is the smallest coal producer of the three main producing regions. The Illinois basin boasts large reserves of bituminous coal, but production has fallen there since the mid-1990s. Its coal generally has a high sulfur content (3 to 7 percent), which runs afoul of US environmental laws, especially the Clean Air Act of 1990. Prior to this legislation, power plants burning high-sulfur coal released emissions resulting in acid rain that decimated forests throughout much of the nation. The lignite steam coal of Louisiana is an exception within the region: its sulfur content is low and so production has risen substantially in recent years. After 2018, sulfur scrubbers will be mandatory for coal-fired power plants in the US, perhaps facilitating a move to increase production of coal from the Illinois Basin.

USA - coal reserves and production

Wyoming has some bituminous coal, but most of its reserves consist of sub-bituminous and lignite. Production from the state (primarily from the Powder River Basin) has increased sharply since 1970, because its coal is abundant, cheaply surface-mined, and low in sulfur. Wyoming is currently responsible for 80 percent of coal production west of the Mississippi.

Montana also has large deposits of lower-quality coal (sub-bituminous and lignite), but these have not been tapped. The current state governor, Brian Schweitzer, is pushing for development of these resources using gasification and carbon sequestration technologies, but there are reasons to doubt whether this will occur soon or on a meaningful scale. Montana’s coal contains salts that will almost inevitably find their way into the environment if widespread surface mining occurs, contaminating rivers and creating problems for cattle ranching—the state’s economic engine and a locus of considerable political clout.

For the nation as a whole, future supply hinges on the question of how long rising production of lower-quality coal from Wyoming—supplemented in the future perhaps by coal from Montana and the Illinois Basin—can continue to compensate for declining amounts of high-quality coal from the East. Clearly, the US has the potential to produce enormous quantities of coal. But the gradual depletion of coal with higher heating value is already necessitating the mining of larger quantities of lower-quality coal to yield an equivalent amount of energy, and as coal is sourced more from Montana and the Illinois this will require the building of more rail transport infrastructure and the overcoming of environmental problems and regulatory hurdles.

Over sixty percent of coal mined in the US is dug from the surface. This is a higher percentage than in most nations, and it is largely due to the contribution of Wyoming. In the eastern states, most coal still comes from deep mines, which are moving toward the recovery of ever-thinner seams. Highwall mining systems and new technologies for longwall mining may lead, ultimately, to remote-control mining involving few or no personnel working underground. These new and more efficient technologies will enable some coal to be mined that would otherwise be left behind, but they are unlikely to be applied throughout the entire industry due to high up-front investment costs.

In surface mining, the largest extraction cost is often incurred in removing overburden (soil and rock). Over the years, the coal industry has introduced ever-larger earth-moving machines for this purpose. However, truck size has probably reached a practical maximum, as the biggest vehicles cannot be maneuvered on roads.

However coal is mined, the industry must always confront the bottom line: the cost of getting coal out of the ground cannot exceed the market price for produced coal. Thus the current price determines whether marginal coals will be mined profitably, or simply left in the ground. On the other hand, however, as the costs of bringing coal to market rise, this can cause the price of coal to increase—unless and until higher prices suppress demand. Given that demand for electricity continues to expand, and that cheap alternatives to coal for power generation do not exist in sufficient quantity in the short run, there seems to be no near-term cap to coal prices. As a result, marginal coalfields are now more likely to be mined.

During the two-year period from January 2006 to January 2008, prices rose from about $100 a ton to $250 a ton for high-quality metallurgical grades of US coal. Central Appalachian steam coal is currently selling for about $90 a ton, up from $40 two years ago. During this time production costs have risen as well, though not at the same pace.

The cost of producing coal is related to the price of oil. Consider the case of Massey Energy Company, the nation’s fourth-largest coal company, which annually produces 40 million tons of coal using about 40 million gallons of diesel fuel—about a gallon per ton (the company also uses lubricants, rubber products, and explosives, all made from petroleum or natural gas). If the price of diesel goes up one dollar, this translates directly to $40 million in increased costs; indirectly related costs also climb.

These costs and prices need to be seen in proportion: while coal generates half of America’s electricity, in effect providing much of the essential basis for all economic activity within the country, US coal industry revenues are only about $25 billion—one-tenth those of WalMart.

During some recent years, the US was a net coal importer, since coal brought by ship from South America was often cheaper to supply to coastal cities than US coal moved there by rail. This was partly a result of rail transport bottlenecks that are now being addressed with the laying of more rails and the construction of more coal cars. Now, however, with coal prices high and imports growing in China and India, the US has begun exporting larger quantities. Mines are employing more workers and production is booming.

History of Reserves Estimates

The US has seen a long controversy between coal resource optimists and pessimists—a controversy that is somewhat mirrored in the global coal resource picture.

In 1907, Marius R. Campbell, Director of the USGS, headed the first attempt at a scientific survey of US coal, concluding that ultimately recoverable reserves amounted to 3157.2 billion tons. Since production in that year was 570 million tons, simple arithmetic yielded an R/P ratio of 5500/1, which was interpreted as meaning that the nation had a 5,500-year supply. That implied an effectively limitless amount for the practical purposes of economic planning.

Campbell did hedge his estimate by pointing out that much of this coal was not minable, or was inaccessible for other reasons. He also wrote that ". . . the bulk of coal being mined today is the best in the country, and before long, perhaps before 50 years [i.e., by 1959], much of the high-rank coals will be exhausted." (Putnam 234) Still, Campbell’s figure for total reserves was for many years taken at face value.

Soon, state surveys began gathering more detailed and accurate information, which resulted in the downgrading of regional reserves. Thus when the US Coal Commission mounted a new survey in 1923, it reduced all state reserves figures and dropped some states entirely from its list of active or likely coal producers. Yet through the early decades of the 20th century, the USGS and the Bureau of Mines stuck to the position that America would have plenty of coal for several millennia.

Shortly after World War II, Andrew B. Crichton (a coal engineer and mine operator in Johnstown, Pennsylvania) undertook a state-by-state informal review of existing reserves estimates, publishing his results in an article titled "How Much Coal Do We Really Have? The Need for an Up-To-Date Survey," in Coal Technology (August 1948). Crichton minced no words:

It was asserted at the Denver [USGS] meeting last October that no one should have the temerity to question the Government figures unless they submitted maps and records proving their statements. Well, that is quite a burden to impose upon an individual to justify an opinion regarding our coal reserves. But that is exactly what could be done in many cases in the east where many have knowledge of the wide discrepancy between the Government figures and private records based on prospecting and actual development. It is these wide differences that prompt the fears and lead to the belief that these fantastic and unbelievable figures of the United States Geological Survey are wrong and dangerously misleading and should be corrected promptly.

Citing instance after instance in which USGS reserves figures for well-mined regions had turned out to be highly inflated, Crichton went on to offer his own estimate of national coal reserves as 223 billion tons—a number not that much smaller than the current official estimate.

Crichton’s article, while causing understandable consternation and embarrassment for the USGS, could not be ignored. It was cited repeatedly in Palmer Putnam’s authoritative book Energy In the Future (1953), which also offered pessimistic assessments of US oil and natural gas supplies. Indeed, Putnam demonstrably erred on the conservative side, forecasting that America’s oil production would peak between 1955 and 1960 (the actual peak was in 1970); and that coal production would begin to decline by 1990—whereas, as we have seen, actual produced amounts continue to grow annually.

The USGS and the Bureau of Mines, which was later absorbed into the Department of Energy, responded by gradually reducing estimates of coal reserves figures for many states and the nation as a whole. Yet through the 1950s, national reserves remained at well over 500 billion tons—still above 1,000 years in terms of R/P forecasting.

In the 1960s, concerned that reserves figures were not making sufficient allowances for factors that would prevent much of the resource from ever being produced, the USGS commissioned surveys by geologist Paul Averitt, culminating in the publication, in 1975, of Coal Resources of the US. By now the official estimate of recoverable reserves had been whittled down to the current range of 260 to 275 billion tons. This was seen as no cause for alarm, as the reserves-to-production ratio forecast remained at comfortably above 200 years; also, it was believed that new technologies (such as longwall mining and underground gasification) would eventually be able to convert substantial quantities of resources back into reserves.

In 1995, the USGS began work on the National Coal Resource Assessment (NCRA), a multi-year effort to create a digital assessment on a region-by-region basis, which is still in process, with few of the crucial results currently publicly available.

According to the EIA website, as of January 1, 2007 the Estimated Recoverable Reserves for the US amounted to 267 billion tons. Since production for 2006 was 1,162,750 tons, that would indicate an R/P ratio of about 230/1.

A graphic from the Department of Energy (EIA), using 2005 data, is helpful in visualizing the various categories within the overall coal resource base.

As we are about to see, the long process of revising national coal reserves figures downward may not be at an end.

New Studies

1. Coal: Research and Development to Support National Energy Policy (National Academy of Sciences [NAS], July 2007, http://books.nap.edu/). This book-length report concluded that "there is no question that sufficient minable coal is available to meet the nation’s coal needs through 2030," and also that "there is probably sufficient coal to meet the nation’s needs for more than 100 years at current production levels"—though this latter judgment does not appear to be based on a peaking analysis. In sum, however, the report is a plea for better, more realistic reserves estimates:

[I]t is not possible to confirm that there is a sufficient supply of coal for the next 250 years, as is often asserted. A combination of increased rates of production with more detailed reserve analyses that take into account location, quality, recoverability, and transportation issues may substantially reduce the estimated number of years supply. This increasing uncertainty associated with the longer-term projections arises because significant information is incomplete or unreliable. The data that are publicly available for such projections are outdated, fragmentary, or inaccurate.

These doubts about current reserves figures were based upon recent Coal Recoverability Studies undertaken in Kentucky, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and Wyoming—in effect, spot checks to determine whether reserves figures were indeed reliable within restricted areas where coal recoverability could be determined with some accuracy as the result of mining experience.

A total of 65 areas in 22 coal fields have been analyzed, and these studies suggest that 8 to 89 percent of the identified resources in these coal fields are recoverable and 5 to 25 percent of identified resources may be classified as reserves. Because they are based on site-specific criteria, these studies provide considerably improved estimates compared to the ERR [Estimated Recoverable Reserves].

One such study, of the Matewan quadrangle of eastern Kentucky, concluded: "a strong argument can be made that traditional coal producing regions may soon be experiencing resource depletion problems far greater and much sooner than previously thought." (http://pubs.usgs.gov/)

The NAS report enumerates the problems that the US coal industry will face in coming decades:

Almost certainly, coals mined in the future will be lower quality because current mining practices result in higher-quality coal being mined first, leaving behind lower-quality material (e.g., with higher ash yield, higher sulfur, and/or higher concentrations of potentially harmful elements). The consequences of relying on poorer-quality coal for the future include (1) higher mining costs (e.g., the need for increased tonnage to generate an equivalent amount of energy, greater abrasion of mining equipment); (2) transportation challenges (e.g., the need to transport increased tonnage for an equivalent amount of energy); (3) beneficiation challenges (e.g., the need to reduce ash yield to acceptable levels, the creation of more waste); (4) pollution control challenges (e.g., capturing higher concentrations of particulates, sulfur, and trace elements; dealing with increased waste disposal); and (5) environmental and health challenges.

2. Coal: Resources and Future Production (Werner Zittel and Jörg Schindler, Energy Watch Group [EWG], March 2007, www.energywatchgroup.org/). This report contains ten pages of analysis specific to US coal supplies. The EWG authors note,

Until the year 2000, productivity [the amount of coal produced per worker hour] steadily increased for all types of coal produced covering surface and subsurface mining. But since then productivity has declined by about 10%. . . . The decline in productivity can only be explained by the necessity of rising efforts in production. This might be due to deeper digging and/or to a higher level of waste production. Are these already indications for the era of ‘easy coal’ drawing to a close?

The EWG report offers several peaking scenarios for US coal. The most optimistic shows a peak in 2070:

Possible coal production in USA, if 1998 reserves are realistic

However, the authors warn that "Even if volumetric production rates can be increased by about 60% until 2070-2080 before decline sets in, the corresponding energy production will increase only by about 45-50% due to the increased share of sub-bituminous coal and lignite." Like the National Academy of Sciences, the EWG authors believe that the official estimated recoverable reserves figure is too large. They offer two alternative scenarios for future production: one in which only recoverable reserves at existing mines are considered producible (peak in 2015), and the other in which reported estimated recoverable reserves are all producible, but regional production trends are taken into account peak in 2040). They suggest that "The real profile will be somewhere between these two extremes."

US coal production - recoverable reserves at mine

US coal production - estiated recoverable reserves

A third peaking forecast is based on an LBST (German renewable energy consultancy Ludwig Bölkow Systemtechnik) analysis, which is itself based on USGS production forecasts in 2000 using 1995 data. The USGS forecast is corrected for actual production in the intervening years, and a future production profile is chosen in accordance with past production trends and likely production growth (Montana and Illinois are assumed to provide only marginally increased amounts). It is this fourth scenario, with a peak around 2025, that the EWG authors appear to consider most reasonable.

US coal production - LBST forecast with USGS estimate adapted to 2005 production

The authors conclude:

Considering the insights of the regional analysis it is very likely that bituminous coal production in the US has already peaked, and that total (volumetric) coal production will peak between 2020 and 2030. The possible growth to arrive at peak measured in energy terms will be lower, only about 20% above today’s level. . . . [T]he 250 billion ton figure [the current official estimate of recoverable reserves] should not be the basis for energy planning.

The various EWG scenarios suggest that if Montana and Illinois can resolve their production blockages, or the nation becomes so desperate for energy supplies that environmental concerns are simply swept away, then the peak will come somewhat later, while the decline will be longer, slower, and probably far dirtier.

3. Lignite and Hard Coal: Energy Suppliers for World Needs until the Year 2100 – An Outlook(Thomas Thielemann, Sandro Schmidt, and J. Peter Gerling, German Federal Institute for Geosciences and Natural Resources [BGR], International Journal of Coal Geology Volume 72, Issue 1, 3 September 2007, http://www.sciencedirect.com/). This paper forecasts no bottleneck in coal supplies and a large potential for expanding coal-to-liquids (CTL) production. It offers relatively little detail for individual producing countries and makes no attempt at a peaking analysis. For the US, the explicit conclusion is that there will be no coal supply problems this century.

4. A Supply-Driven Forecast for the Future of Global Coal Production (Höök, Zittel, Schindler, and Aleklett;Energy Policy, in press, www.tsl.uu.se/). Much of this report repeats data and arguments from the prior EWG publication. The conclusions for the US are also similar:

It is reasonable that USA with its huge energy consumption will be among the first in the Big Six to peak in coal production. All major coal-producing states, except Wyoming, seem to be near or past peak production. It should however be noticed that environmental laws and other socioeconomic restrictions probably prevent a significant amount of coal from being produced in the near future, especially high-sulfur coals. A relaxation of the restrictions will therefore probably be able to increase the reserves, but whether this relaxation will happen or not is hard to tell and not considered in the forecast. . . . The decline in heat value shows that the best American coals are gone and that poorer and poorer coals are exploited each year. The decrease in mining productivity is an also in line with the fact that the most easy-accessible coal is gone.

"A Supply-Driven Forecast" contains two new charts, one a high-case and the other a low-case scenario. The higher case "depicts a continued rapid expansion of Wyoming together with a build-up of the capacity in Montana." The lower case "does not envision a dramatic increase of the Montanan coal production and consequently the production level from Montana remains at its current level." In the higher case, production peaks around 2040; in the lower case, which the authors regard as "more realistic," the decline commences around 2030.

U.S. coal production forecast, higher case

U.S. coal production forecast, lower case

5. Hubbert linearization and curve-fitting (Rutledge and Laherrère). David Rutledge, Tomiyasu Professor of Electrical Engineering at the California Institute of Technology and Director of Caltech’s Lee Center for Advanced Networking, in a presentation at Caltech in October 2007, used Hubbert linearization analysis to estimate future global coal production (http://rutledge.caltech.edu/). Rutledge argues that, in any region for which we have something close to a complete production history (i.e., production has declined substantially due to resource depletion—e.g., British coal or US lower-48 oil), historic reserves estimates typically have turned out to be too high. As we have seen, this position is now in effect supported by NAS on the basis of recent site-specific case studies. Rutledge goes on to argue that Hubbert linearization often yields a more accurate forecast of ultimately recoverable reserves.

Rutledge applies linearization to North American coal producing regions, "with trends for the East (40Gt), West (25Gt), reserves for Montana (68Gt), and trends for Canada and Mexico (2Gt total)." This results in an estimate of total ultimately recoverable reserves of 135 billion tons, roughly half the reserves figure now used by official agencies.

Veteran petroleum geologist Jean Laherrère has charted two Hubbert curves for US coal ("Combustibles fossiles: quel avenir pour quel monde?" http://aspofrance.viabloga.com/), one assuming an ultimate production of 150 billion tons (which is roughly in line with Rutledge’s conclusion just cited), and the other assuming 300 billion tons (which is somewhat more than the current official ERR). The production peak in the former case occurs in 2025; in the latter case, decline commences after 2060.

U.S. coal production with models for U=300 Gt & 150 C

Implications

With oil and natural gas prices rising at alarming rates, the return of the US to a greater reliance on coal might seem inevitable. The nation is currently paying over $620 billion per year for petroleum imports, and this ongoing transfer of wealth abroad cannot help but have a substantial negative impact on the domestic economy. There are three ways to moderate that impact: reduce consumption of liquid fuels through conservation; produce more fuels domestically; or electrify transport, which will require more electricity. Coal could help with either of the latter two strategies. Given that the nation possesses so much coal, and that energy from coal is still relatively cheap, it would seem inevitable that strong arguments will be made for a dramatic increase in coal production to help solve the nation’s energy problems.

Yet if most of the recent analyses cited here are correct, this strategy has a short shelf life. Within the planning horizon for any coal plant proposed today lie much higher coal prices and perhaps even resource scarcity.

The sheer amounts of coal that will be needed in order to offset any significant proportion of oil (and perhaps also natural gas) consumption, and to meet the projected increased demand for electricity, are mind-boggling. Coal is a lower-quality fossil fuel in the best case, and America is being forced to use ever lower-quality coal. Just to offset the declining heating value of US coal while meeting EIA forecasts for electricity demand growth by 2030, the nation will then have to mine roughly 80 percent more coal then than it is doing currently. If carbon sequestration and other new technologies for consuming coal are implemented, they will increase the amount of coal required in order to produce the same amount of energy for society’s use, since the energy penalty for capture and sequestration is estimated at up to 40 percent. A broad-scale effort to produce synthetic liquid fuels from coal (CTL) will also dramatically increase coal demand. If the current trend to expand coal exports continues, this would stimulate demand even further. Altogether, there is a realistic potential for more than a doubling, perhaps even a tripling, of US coal demand and production by 2030—which would hasten exhaustion of the resource from many current mining regions and draw the inevitable production peak closer in time.

Assuming this higher demand scenario (from CTL, increased exports, and growing electricity consumption), by 2030 the nation’s dependence on coal will be much greater than is currently the case, and coal’s proportional contribution to the total US energy supply will have grown substantially. But at the same time, prices for coal are likely to have increased precipitously because of transport bottlenecks and higher transport costs (due to soaring diesel prices), falling production trends in many current producing regions, and the lack of suitable new coalfields. The interactions of high and rising coal prices with efforts to maximize output are hard to predict.

As limits to domestic coal production appear, exports could diminish and there could instead be efforts to import more coal, probably from South America. But in that case the US economy would suffer increasingly from economic dependencies and geopolitical vulnerabilities that already hobble the nation as a result of its oil imports.

It may be tempting to think of coal as a transitional energy source for the next few decades, while a longer-term energy strategy emerges. But in that case, an important question arises: Will there be sufficient investment capital and technical resources in three or four decades to fund the transition to the next energy source, whatever it may be? By that time (assuming EIA projections are reasonably accurate), demand for energy will be higher. The price of oil, gas, and coal will be higher—perhaps much higher—and so the nation will be spending proportionally much more of its GDP on energy than it does now. Meanwhile, the energy cost of building new infrastructure of any kind will be higher. Therefore it is likely that insufficient investment capital will be available for the large number of new energy projects required. The transition if deferred will thus be more expensive and difficult than it would be now. Indeed, the longer a transition to an ultimate (and sustainable) energy regime is put off, the harder that transition becomes.

Coal currently looks like a solution to many of America’s fast-growing energy problems. However, this is a solution that, if applied on a broad scale, seems certain only to exacerbate the nation’s energy dilemma in the long run, as well as contributing to an impending global climate catastrophe.


(Note: This article is a draft chapter from a forthcoming book, currently titled Coal’s Future/Earth’s Fate, to be published by Post Carbon Press in spring 2009. The author wishes to thank Werner Zittel, David Rutledge, Jean Laherrère, David Strahan, Julian Darley, and Jason Brenno for assistance with this article.

Previous MuseLetters on global coal supply issues are archived on Global Public Media (www.globalpublicmedia.com):

Great article-excellent overview of the situation.

Coal powered the industrial revolution, and it will be the energy end game for industrial civilization as well. We'll know we're close to rock bottom, literally, when we start burning oil shale in place of coal to keep the lights on.

I've been arguing since the Hirsch report came out that the inevitable "stampede to coal" is a fantasy. Poor ugly, dirty coal can't possibly simultaneously power industry for a growing population, keep the lights on, heat our homes when natural gas supplies dwindle and power our electric cars and trucks when oil imports fall to zero (or be converted to synthetic fuel for internal combustion engines).

Your two statements are contradictory- I think you mean there will be a stampede but it won't solve anything.

Sorry, I'm not much of a writer. Yes, that's what I meant. The stampede will happen, but coal is not an answer for peak oil mitigation, for one thing because the problem isn't peak oil but rather peak resources and population overshoot.

You have to remember that different fuels fit into different segments of the energy use pie. The immediate problem that we usually discuss here is the coming gap between supply and demand at a reasonable price, of oil and natural gas. They are liquid fuels and most of their use is in transportation.

In contrast most coal is used to generate electricity and, as I point out as part of a comment below, the public is not amenable to significant increase in that price. Which is a problem since it is largely in displacing coal that solar and wind have the potential. None of the three has a realistic chance of providing significant volumes (by which I mean over a million barrels a day) of liquid fuel in the next 20 years.

In a way coal is, however, like oil, in the latter case you only produce as much as the refineries can handle, in the same way with coal, there is not much point in producing more coal than the power stations can handle, since you can't sell it.

Which is a problem since it is largely in displacing coal that solar and wind have the potential.

If only that were true. Unfortunately, without electricity storage or a shift away from a power on demand system, solar and wind will not displace the baseload parts of the existing generation system (e.g. coal and nuclear), they will displace the part that supplies the variable demand that results from weather and time of day demand variations (e.g. gas and hydro). That is why solar and wind are currently limited to about 20% of the generation mix and why building new nuclear is so important.

It seems clear that the amount of coal produced (regardless of environmental impacts) will be the maximum the economy can sustain at a given price point. We cannot ignore the current peak in oil and impending peak in natural supplies in this equation. Considering oil alone, the price run-up cannot exceed a value that the percentage of the national GDP spent buying the oil exceeds 100% - obviously. Long before that point demand destruction will set in, with widespread economic contraction and reduction in total GDP, but the price of oil will also drop until the two are in balance again, probably at about 15-25% of GDP.

Of course, there will be some mitigation in that the economy will adapt to other sources of energy (or invests in energy conservation), but that process is probably (certainly !) going to be too slow to prevent 'overshoot' in the economy. In the case of overshoot, the economy will contract, and demand for coal will go down. So production will go down. Again, after (if...) the supply and demand for oil balance again, the economy will begin to recover, and the demand for coal with it. Just in time for the natural gas demand overshoot....

And so to the final phase, we reach an economy with coal the primary fossil energy source (once again). This time, we will discover the true cost (as percentage of GDP) that the economy will sustain, to extract energy to drive the economy. I suspect it will again be at or below 30% of (a much reduced) GDP. Total production will be lower than today. The more expensive seams will never be produced because they will never be economic.

On top of this we need to consider that the US is not an island. You import 60% of your oil, so the cost of those imports is seriously denting your economy already. A significant percentage of your natural gas is also imported, so again that damages your economic potential. Your coal is indigenous, and being the largest reserves in the world, you will become a next exporter of energy in the distant coal powered future. If the world economy hasn't fared worse than your own, so that they can afford it...

I have ignored nuclear and renewables in this, because the post is long enough already, and they will take too long to build up to prevent the overall dynamic.

Coal powered future is unlikely to happen. Can you spell "infrastructure bottlenecks"?

Railroads in US are already stretched thin, and about 40% of the cargo transported is... coal. Theoretically we can start upgrading the infrastructure, but historically there is a 10-15 year lag in doing that, so we are already maybe 20 years late, and counting. I expect any upgrades and expansions to hardly keep up with the declining quality of coal, let alone replace oil and natural gas.

Clearly a rapid demand pressure on the coal supplies could not be satisfied. Our only chance would be a quick ramp up of nuclear and renewables, so that coal supplies are relived, with a portion left for CTL to fuel transportation, where it can't go electric (jet fuels, heavy machinery, etc.). Personally I favor this path and I think this is exactly what will happen in the next decades.

At some point, won't it be more efficient to electrify/liquify the coal at the site of extraction and move the electricity/liquids than to transport the coal?

Unfortunately, this still requires infrastructure. Our electric grid needs serious upgrading. We will need to open new mines and expand other ones. This will require additional coal mining equipment and workers trained to do the necessary work. CTL plants seem to be quite big and complex. Adding enough of these to increase our gasoline production by even 5% would be a huge undertaking.

(In mischief) Can you spell pipeline? The reason that coal is not shipped by pipeline is more political than technical.

I think it will depend on how fast the oil supply declines as to whether we see much investment in CTL or not, again much of it is political (help the junior Senator from where?), if the crash comes earlier it is a technology that is available, and which works and has been tested at all scales. If the crisis is more drawn out then it is possible that another replacement might provide a significant alternative (but what?)

At the moment I suspect that electric cars will be one of the answers, but that requires power, and that requires power stations, and coal is still the most likely candidate. If solar costs more than 5 times coal costs, and is only realistically available in the Southern states we don't have, as you note, the infrastructure in place to shift it around, nor the economic incentive to put it in place.

"The reason that coal is not shipped by pipeline is more political than technical"

Can you expand on this? My guess is that such shipments will require enormous amounts of water. And at 1bln.tonnes annually even dry coal has similar volume than all oil ever piped in this country. Not sure it would be economical to build another pipeline system just for that.

Of course a large scale coal expansion may change this, but I'm not familiar with the technical details to have an opinion.

Coal has been piped in the past, and there was some work on creating "coal logs" that were made of coal particles and a binder that would sensibly fill most of the volume of the pipe, thereby reducing water needs. The only operating unit at the moment that I am aware of is at Black Mesa. There has been some talk about using air as a conveying fluid, but I am not sure how well that would work at longer distances.

I just did a quick Google, and found this :

Several utilities and consultants are proposing the coal-slurry pipeline as a far cheaper alternate to unit trains.^It has been estimated that a slurry pipeline will be $14 billion cheaper than unit trains for a 1400-mile haul from Wyoming to a 1400-MW generating station in Arkansas.^This estimate of savings is from Larry Grundmann, engineering manager for Middle South Utilities` (MSU) fuel subsidiary.^MSU is building two coal-fired units--scheduled for operation in 1979 and 1981 at a site near White Bluff, Arkansas.^

(Obviously it is quite old, and was not implemented).

There are varying reports on how much water a pipeline would use - and sometimes it is difficult to separate out the facts, since the railways, for some obscure reason, seem to be dead set against them. There is more information on the coal log idea at this site.

Thanks, much appreciated. Makes you wonder why such low-tech transportation technology has not been implemented on the large scale already.

Anyway building pipelines would also take time and face similar constraints as with railroads. I stick to my initial claim that infrastructure coupled with depletion of the best sites will prevent coal from replacing oil and NG. In energy terms this would require more than tripling of coal production in US, and if we account for loss of efficiency if CTL is to replace the oil, this would require further almost doubling of it. Not even remotely possible IMO, not even in 50 years.

At some point, won't it be more efficient to electrify/liquify the coal at the site of extraction and move the electricity/liquids than to transport the coal?

This report says it is at least 61% more expensive to transport coal over rail vs. generating electricity at the mine and sending it over HVDC transmission lines:

Economics of Mine Mouth Generation with HVDC transmission relative to Coal Transport

Railroads in US are already stretched thin

so they'll always be stretched thin? is that what you're saying?

This is almost exactly what I am saying. There are long lead times to build new infrastructure and it gets complicated when you combine that with resource depletion. For example you wouldn't like to build a new railroad to a coal mine, if this coal mine will have it's coal depleted in say 10 year, it just wouldn't make sense. There are number of other complications, some of them linked with peak oil and NG - for example price of diesel fuel goes up.

The bottom line is: if we hope for coal to take the role of replacing NG and oil, I expect coal mining and transport to suffer chronical bottlenecks and associated sky-high prices for many decades. It will simply come short. In the meantime depletion of the best sites will takeover any intermediate gains and we will arrive at "peak coal". Pretty much the way we arrived at peak oil.

For example you wouldn't like to build a new railroad to a coal mine, if this coal mine will have it's coal depleted in say 10 year, it just wouldn't make sense. There are number of other complications, some of them linked with peak oil and NG - for example price of diesel fuel goes up.

you don't understand, it doesn't make sense if the profit isn't there. if coal prices go up and your profit if $1 billion, it does make sense to build a $50 million railroad if you're the coal company. if the RR builds it the calculation might be different. you can just dig up the tracks when you're done and recycle them, if you want to do that. you might want to leave the track there if you don't close the mine permenently. you might have scenic trips on the railroad. you might turn the old mine into an ATV area or a garbage dump. you might find you can ship something else on the RR when the mine closes like timber. maybe it'll connect to another RR.

Think you are overestimating the profit coal miners are making - as the article says the whole industry is worth 25bln. And if coal prices double or triple, let's say stay sustainably over $100-$200/ton, then other alternatives like nuclear or solar thermal will be the preferred choice, not coal. Basically coal will follow the fate of oil - oil will also never run out but it will just become too expensive to be practical.

I made a fictional estimation of profits. If it's not economical to build a RR to ship the coal the mine won't open till it is.

it doesn't make sense if the profit isn't there.

Huh. So there has to be a PROFIT for something to make sense?

Plenty of things humans do without a profit motive.

turn the old mine into an ATV area or a garbage dump.

So lets see - we are to believe your position in things. Yet here you suggest that ATVs will exist as 'needing an area' in the future? Where exactly will these ATVs get power - perhaps "we" don't need coal if there is so much cheap energy that ATVs can have a 'area'?

As for using a mine as a dump - yet another poorly thought out "idea".

I'll leave it to the other readers to reflect on your 'ideas' and their value.

Personally I favor this path ...

Why?

You mentioned infrastructure for coal. What about the infrastructure ramp-up needed for nuclear? Besides a ton of other issues.

I think the debate about peak oil is over. (True, the MSM hasn't adequately notified the public yet.) Peak hydrocarbons isn't far behind.

The new debate is whether the alternatives can come even remotely close to maintaining our current way of life OR whether we face a drastic and global retrenchment.

There was a little hint of that in the 5/27 WSJ article "Lofty Prices For Fertilizer Put Farmers in Squeeze". Deep in the article:

Chemical fertilizers are so effective in raising crop yields that economists figure farmers would be able to feed billions fewer people without them.

What I would love to see is one of the TOD crunchers tackle the issue of each of the alternatives to oil (nuclear, solar, bio, tidal, etc) one-by-one and examine the full range of resource, environmental, and infrastructure costs. My bet is that at the end of the day, nothing can come anywhere near replacing what we get from hydrocarbons. Therefore there is no choice but drastic retrenchment. And drastic retrenchment means reconnecting with the ultimate resources: soil, water and air (climate), i.e. precisely the resources we are damaging in order to get at the remaining hydrocarbons.

The only good news is that we are SOOO wasteful of energy that even the very first and obvious steps in conservation yield far greater yields than any new techno fixes.

The article, BTW, was excellent.

Therefore there is no choice but drastic retrenchment.

This is pretty much what I keep saying. We just might manage to be lucky enough to end up with a soft landing rather than a catastrophic crash and die off, but there is no way that the soft landing can be anyplace but at an economic level substantially below the present. Once the non-renewables are gone, we will have no choice but to live within the constraints of available renewables, and those constraints, by my estimates, suggest that a per capita GDP of maybe 25% of present is the most we can possibly hope for.

The future will consist of a long series of painful curtailments, giving up of things we have spent our whole lives enjoying, and surrendering our ambitions and expectations while we learn to adjust and accept ever-lower living standards. The sooner that one understands and accepts this, the easier and less painful it will all be.

If we don't crash and burn in the transition, I find the logic that we would have to accept a permanently low standard of living difficult to follow.
There is plenty of energy out there, it is just that we haven't bothered developing it, as fossil fuels were so cheap.
Given fairly cheap energy, then most things from agriculture to mining to cleaning the environment becomes a lot easier, and higher standards of living are the best guarantee of moving in time to a falling population.

There is plenty of energy out there, it is just that we haven't bothered developing it, as fossil fuels were so cheap.

This is of course true. The sun has plenty, the galaxy more, and the universe oodles. But the issue is: how much is available to us? Oil is the perfect fuel. It's compact and safely portable. NG has some other virtues. But from there it is a downhill slide.

Nature collected and stored and packaged hydrocarbons for us (well, if not for us, then who?) and we took it, and took it, ... . One might say the same for uranium, dense yes, but hardly portable and requiring a huge and advanced infrastructure, plus safety issues and costs before, during and after. Solar also requires an infrastructure, manufacture is not a small deal, and the end product is not ideally packaged for transport (therefore requiring conversion) -- and this is the key to our way of life, the global economy.

The key is that we vastly under-estimate, IMO, the very great virtues of oil and NG, relative to all other possible sources of energy. The other sources exist, but can they provide energy, after conversion, and after all the required resource inputs are costed (including the environmental ones -- which is all we have to fall back on the techno fixes fail) that will sustain anything near our present way of life?

I'm not capable of doing the required research. But just on the surface of it, it looks very problematic too me. The surface being exquisite quality of the oil resource for the modern economy. It's as if nature led us down the garden path -- here it is, take it, enjoy it -- ha, ha, you've used half of it up - now your on your own! Good luck.

But we do have brains. Science is just the collective human brain. Now we've got to use the collective brain to see where we are and what can be done.

The virtues of alternative sources like solar and nuclear are pretty pronounced too.
For a start, running a car on electric takes a fraction of the power that an ICE car does.
Once you've developed suitable batteries, which is no mean trick, but we ar nearly there, then the rest of the car is relatively simple compared to an ICE car.
Solar cells are much the same story, darn difficult to learn to build but providing scads of power, often right where it is needed once the art has been mastered.
Nuclear energy has been diverted from the obvious ways of producing it for civilian purposes, as it started as the creature of the. arms industry.
Molten salt fluoride reactors were completely useless for producing weapons grade materials and so did not get much of a look in, and early sixties prototypes were stopped.
Bad as they are at producing weapons material, they produce something like 50 times the energy for a given amount of fuel as current reactors, and waste is even less and decays far more quickly.
With only slightly more advanced reactors than today you then have a highly concentrated source of energy, and fuel for amny millions of years at minimum.
Ably assisted by wind power, geothermal and biogas then the idea that there is any reason not to have enough energy makes no sense.
For the liquid fuels that are still needed, if you have energy you can produce them, and technologies for that are rapidly being brought to practicality.
Conservation technologies like passivhaus, solar residential thermal, and air heat pumps can also provide a high degree of comfort using very little energy.

Right. We have very ample energy supplies to maintain and grow our advanced civilization into the foreseeable future. With the possible exception of battery technology, we also have all the technology pieces to transition to an electricity based transportation system and there is good reason to believe that those development will come.

The question is, do we have the time and the will to make the transition? I think the time issue is largely a matter of how long we will be in this current denial phase and how long we will spend on unproductive alternatives like ethanol and over intellectual reliance on wind and solar. Maybe the free market can take care of it or maybe it will require world war levels of deliberate societal mobilization. I hope I live long enough to see how it all plays out.

That's why I did not put in my penny's worth on what I planned to do in the event of $100/gallon oil.
No medicines + not much heat = no Dave in fairly short order, so extensive planning seems redundant! ;-)

I agree that the problem with renewables is that they are regarded as a magic wand, so we end up not only trying to reduce carbon emissions, simultaneously with coping with fossil fuels going into massive short supply, but many want us to do it with one foot in a bucket by not using the technology which we know how to do on a large scale for baseload generation by ruling out nuclear energy!

None of the fairly fanciful dangers remotely compare with the mass die-off of billions which would result from the failure of out technological civilisation.

Since in Britain we seem likely to once more lead the world, this time by freezing to death, I do not feel a great depth of gratitude to those who have been instrumental in saving us from the horrors of nuclear power.

Around 30GW out of a total of 75GW of generating capacity is due to go off line in the next 10-15 years, and they are relying on importing natural gas that doesn't exist to replace it plus heat our houses, and off-shore wind which won't be remotely affordable to make up the balance.

Meanwhile after 10 years of decrying nuclear power they have finally confronted reality that it is the only practical way of generating base-load for Britain, but too late to build it in a timely fashion.

Dave,

Matt Simmons, who I greatly admire, is fighting the last war in trying to get $100 trillion into new oil and gas development in the next ten years but then he is an oil man. I think those of us that are working on grand strategy, trying to rebuild the entire system, need to just forget about oil and gas. I think we do need to try to stop coal.

I think we need to articulate this vision of the solution better than it has been so far. I have been trying to push this idea of 60% nuclear, 20% renewables and 20% legacy (fossil fuels) of total energy by 2050. That's about 5,000 reactors. I wish I had the time to write an article. Maybe you, LevinK, AdvancedNano, Dezakin and I (who else?) could collaborate on it?

I actually think Brown has been making some good progress in turning GB around on nuclear after Blair ducked it for so long. The romantic greens who are fine with a big die-off can be very intimidating until you take them on.

Sterling

I'd go along with your percentages for the UK.
For places like the US which have better solar resources a higher percentage of it is practicable, and their wind resources are also very good.
The practical contribution of solar PV when tied to the grid in the UK is currently zero, as you just need to generate power in the winter when it is essentially unavailable.
Perhaps 100 modern nuclear reactors would run the UK just fine, with perhaps some ancillary contributions from other sources.
The biggest drive of all though needs to be on conservation, with not only good standards for new builds but retofitting of properties to drastically reduce space heating requirements. For residual needs air heat pumps would multiply the efficiency of electric heating by around 2.5 on existing buildings and 4 on new, and residential solar thermal could reduce hot water power needs by 50%.
Greenroof technology would not only help reduce heat loss but reduce heat island effects.
Here is a link to my blog on these subjects which however I have not recently updated, so some of the information is out of date or erroneous, notably I greatly underestimated the cost of off-shore wind, so the position on that is even worse than I indicate there, but OTOH new studies indicates that at least it correlates well with winter demand in the UK
http://energy-futures.blogspot.com/
EnergyFutures

I would add another name to your list, Euan Mearns, and suggest that it might be a good idea to contact him.
Here is my mail:
brittanicone2007 at yahoo dot co dot uk

Once the non-renewables are gone, we will have no choice but to live within the constraints of available renewables, and those constraints, by my estimates, suggest that a per capita GDP of maybe 25% of present is the most we can possibly hope for.

can we have your calculations? how can you possibly predict not only how we'll use our energy but how we'll get it in say 25 years?

what if in five years sticking(literally) to your roof a bunch of solar panels will cost $1,000?

Well, of course it is ultimately true that none of us really knows the future, and just about everything that is posted here merely represents each person's best (and sometimes educated) guess. To that extent, I don't believe I'm out of line in contributing my own thoughts.

One thing I can predict with absolute certainty, though: eventually, the non-renewable resources WILL be depleted, and once we are at that point we will have no choice but to rely exclusively on renewable resources. Argue that point if you want, but I suspect you will be shouted down pretty quickly by heavier hitters than myself.

I start from that basic premise and work backwards. As to why I think that the US per capita GDP would have to be 75% lower in a sustainable, steady-state economy (which is the only type you can have with renewable-only resources), see the article by Francois Cellier posted last year: Ecological Footprint, Energy Consumption, and the Looming Collapse, particluarly my exchange with Dr. Cellier. Sustainability implies an ecological footprint of 1.8 ha/4.4ac per capita. All of the countries with relatively high human development index scores that manage to come anywhere close to this have per capita GDPs that are around 25% of the USA. This is not a hard figure, of course, and I suppose that one could spin out any number of scenarios that could result in both higher or lower figures. However, it seems to me as good as anything for thinking in terms of a likely end point in the transition from an economy based on non-renewables to one based solely on renewables.

It is important for people to understand that to my way of thinking, the above represents a best case scenario. I fully accept that things could end up much worse. The thing that separates me from doomers is that I believe that at least this best case scenario is still possible, that a catastrophic collapse and die off are not an absolute certainty.

An economy with a per capita GDP of around 25% of present suggests that we've only got one way to go: down. The big question of course, is how long we've got, and how steep the descent has to be. I'm hopeful that we'll have the better part of the century to make the transition; my fear is that it is all going to happen faster than that. My best guess is that we are at least going to be well on our way on the long-term descent path within the next decade or so, and will be remaining on it for the remainder of the lifetimes of just about everyone reading this, and probably long after that. No calculations, although Heinberg's calculations in this article suggest that the coal should hold out for most of this century, even allowing for massive switching from other FFs; thus, a slower descent on a shallower slope does seem to be the more likely outcome.

Yes, a breakthrough that makes a rooftop full of PV panels possible for $1,000 would certainly be helpful. But I doubt that it would very much change the fundamental assumptions driving my model (if one can call it that).

Keep in mind that GDP is throughput of not just the goods but all the bads and is not wealth. A significant reduction in GDP might not be as bad as it seems as first blush if one considers the uncounted flows of efficiency and conservation. I bought my first hybrid in 2002 and have already saved thousands of dollars over what would have been my gas expenditures if I had kept my previous vehicle. But those thousands of dollars will not be counted as part of my income or in the GDP.

In any event, perhaps we need another thought experiment post where people say what they would do if their income were reduced by 75%. If they have some time, perhaps they can avoid the worst consequences of such a downturn. Those who are already on the edge,however, are probably screwed regardless of what they do.

I heard a guy on the radio yesterday say we couldn't conserve because to do so would cut growth. That is the mentality we have to deal with.

That is the thing: We don't really get all that much improvement in our quality of life in exchange for our huge ecological footprint. Many would argue that in some ways we actually get a worse quality of life compared to some places (mainly in Europe) that are much more efficient in their resource use.

A good example of a country that is very close to being where we could hope to end up is Costa Rica. On a PPP basis, they are right at about 25% of US per capita GDP, and they are very close to that 1.8 ha per capita. Life must not be too bad there, because lots of Americans relocate there. I'm not saying that we should or would end up being exactly like CR - we are very different countries with very different circumstances. My point is just that life would not necessarilly have to be that terrible. For that matter, on an inflation-adjusted basis we were at 25% of 2008 per capita GDP in 1941. Life is possible at that economic level.

we will have no choice but to live within the constraints of available renewables

The constraints of renewable aren't so bad. The US DOE estimates that concentrating solar power would fall to about $0.05/kWh if produced in volume, and far more desert land exists for this than would be needed. It's also got the benefit of thermal storage, giving CSP its own local storage.

Once the non-renewables are gone

I think that might be your problem right there: you're mentally jumping from "today" to "all the fossils are gone", without taking into consideration what might be done in the intervening decades.

Solar and (especially) wind have hit the big time, and are being built at rapid rates (more wind capacity was installed than any other generating capacity in Europe last year, and wind was second-highest in the US). Any imminent decline in fossil fuel availability is just going to speed that up, as replacing that energy will be a big priority. Same with EVs, since they're so efficient - 1kWh of wind in an EV's battery replaces 6kWh of gasoline.

What about the infrastructure ramp-up needed for nuclear? Besides a ton of other issues.

easy, people have money and want to invest it to make a profit. if they can make a profit they buy the infrastructure with their money. it's that easy.

look what happened the last time oil production dropped? energy production still grew.

http://peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/2008/01/328-peak-liquids-peak-energy...

"What about the infrastructure ramp-up needed for nuclear?"

Actually from all alternatives nuclear has the least infrastructural issues. They can build them and are building them near big demand centers, so adding additional power lines is pretty trivial. The same can not be said about coal mines, places with good wind or solar resources - all or most of which are remote and require costly infrastructure to bring the fuel or the power produced to the places it is consumed. In contrast a year long fuel for a nuclear power plant fits one truckload so this is not an issue at all.

"The only good news is that we are SOOO wasteful of energy that even the very first and obvious steps in conservation yield far greater yields than any new techno fixes."

I agree

Chemical fertilizers are so effective in raising crop yields that economists figure farmers would be able to feed billions fewer people without them.

Economists aren't agricultural scientists, unlike these guys:

"A switch to organic farming would not reduce the world's food supply and could also increase food security in developing countries, say the authors of a new study.

They claim their findings lay to rest the debate over whether organic farming could sustainably feed the world. Organic farming avoids or heavily restricts the use of synthetic pesticides and fertilisers, as well as livestock feed additives."

What I would love to see is one of the TOD crunchers tackle the issue of each of the alternatives to oil (nuclear, solar, bio, tidal, etc) one-by-one and examine the full range of resource, environmental, and infrastructure costs.

How about the US DOE does it instead? They have a fairly thorough analysis of wind power.

My bet is that at the end of the day, nothing can come anywhere near replacing what we get from hydrocarbons.

Wind is expected to provide about 8% of the world's electricity[1] in ten years, with a yearly build rate that would allow it to hit 20% by 2025. That's not even considering a crash program to replace energy; that's simply the new business-as-usual.

[1] Generated, not nameplate: 718GW x 30% capacity factor x 8800hrs/yr = 1900TWh, vs. a projeected 23,000TWh. For reference, that's enough electricity to power enough EVs to replace every car in the world: 1B cars x 6000mi/yr x 0.3kWh/mi = 1800TWh

Our only chance would be a quick ramp up of nuclear and renewables, so that coal supplies are relived, with a portion left for CTL to fuel transportation, where it can't go electric (jet fuels, heavy machinery, etc.). Personally I favor this path and I think this is exactly what will happen in the next decades. -- LevinK

I agree. And since it seem that it is the only viable way to get there that anyone has identified, I think it is almost inevitable, even though there is only a very small minority that now sees this. The debate is almost beside the point now since no one else has come up with a viable alternative.

Reddit and Digg links:

http://reddit.com/info/6l932/comments/

http://digg.com/general_sciences/Richard_Heinberg_A_Study_of_Coal_in_the...

Why we put this here....folks, we ask that you click on these and vote up this wonderful work so that it gets more readership. If you do not have an account on reddit or digg, it truly takes about 30 seconds, and the interface for voting is really easy: hit the digg button or hit the up arrow on reddit beside the article.

The point is we need your help to spread what appears on TOD around--even on message boards or linkfarms. We really do appreciate it--it makes doing what we do a little easier seeing our readers working for us.

Slashdot is a little more complicated, but if you have an account there, here is a link:

http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=695047

I just signed up to reddit and digg - really easy:-)

Yup, me too. The Goose's constant nagging finally broke me. :-)

LOL. Sorry, believe it or not I feel bad every time I post it. It is not in my nature to be such a supplicant, I assure you.

Hey, don't feel bad you know it's best for us and compared to my wife you are a complete beginner and wus so ask away:-)

Maybe you could automate this so every post has these links without you having to kindly and gently request?

Any attempt to burn all the coal of the above production scenarios will end in climate disaster. We are already in CO2 overshoot mode for decades - 385 ppm now compared to 300 ppm as the highest CO2 concentration in the warmest periods of the last 500 K years or so. Any time from now we can expect that nature throws some nasty climate change event(s) at us which will force us to abandon coal. It could be the disappearance of the Arctic summer sea ice by 2013, which will screw up the climate on the Northern hemisphere

Causes of Changes in Arctic Sea Ice; by Wieslaw Maslowski (Naval Postgraduate School)
http://www.ametsoc.org/atmospolicy/documents/May032006_Dr.WieslawMaslows...

(check on monthly sea ice data here: http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/);

it could be the thawing of the permafrost along the North Siberian coast

A Storehouse of Greenhouse Gases Is Opening in Siberia
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,547976,00.html

it could be the acceleration of glacial disintegration on Greenland

"We realized that something was going wrong," Steffen says. "Greenland was coming apart."
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/6661e3568cc83110vgnvcm1000004eecbcc...

or further warming at the Westantarctic icesheet.

The Future of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet
http://geology.com/research/west-antarctic-ice-sheet.shtml

NASA climatologist James Hansen thinks its only a couple of years until something happens:

After the Iowa coal case hearing: “....but it does require that we have a moratorium on any new coal fired power plants. And over the next 25-30 years we are going to have to phase out those that exist. And this is going to become very clear within the next several years. So it is just plain silly to build a new one now because you are not going to be able to grandfather these in and say: oh we have got it so we can keep it. It's not going to work that way. Once the government really understands how serious the problem is these plants are going to have to go. So it just makes no sense to make another one now."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMDS5kEA2ZM

The accumulation of CO2 will bring us into a terrible catch22 situation. Maybe it's wishful thinking but one day the situation will get so serious that all those car factories will have to be converted to factories manufacturing parts for the renewable energy industry, just like in WWII when tanks and army trucks were mass produced.

I know little on this topic but my understanding is China is going full bore on the coal front so the die is cast, one way or another.

One would expect that China would have similar problems as it ramps up coal production. Does anyone know if this is the case?

China is increasingly running on imported coal, so it is vulnerable to action by e.g. Australia to increase prices or cut shipments outright.  If China's sources insist that coal won't be shipped to nations not using CCS, that's going to change the calculus.

I may sound defeatist, but fighting climate change is a lost battle, period.

All of us here agree that we are in front of a resource constrained future, do we? In what scenario can we imagine that within a resource constrained future the government will impose additional constraints to resources? This winter for example China had a power shortage due to cold weather and to coal transportation issues. Now imagine you go to the leaders of China during that time and tell them to shut down their coal power plants because of AGW. What are the odds of success?

The only hope there is, is for a cheaper and more plentiful energy source to replace coal. I had my hopes for nuclear, but I don't think it will be there on time - there are too many factors dragging it: NIMBYsm, misplaced environmental concerns etc.

Everyone needs more energy. Even climate change savvy western Europeans are going to be building a new coal-fired power plant every month, while China will keep building a new coal-fired plant every week, at least until those aforementioned bottlenecks make adding generating capacity irrelevant.

In the U.S., any political opposition to coal power will dissolve with the rolling blackouts.

Where does carbon sequestration fit into all this? Nowhere.

That's the way I see it.

Coal sequestration is a lunacy, which is wasting lots of soon to be scaece resource on Don Quichotian windmill fighting.

I am increasingly sceptical of our legislators. Their ignorance and naivity can do more harm than benefit ( e.g. Clean Energy Act. ).

> Coal sequestration is a lunacy

Fine, though I'm in favor of carbon sequestration. Why make life unbearable for our children, grandchildren, etc?

We'll be looked back at as the unbridled instant gratification generation; the above 3 comments reinforce that coming label.

Actually, it is CCS that is lunacy. Coal IS geologically sequestered carbon, and we cannot do anything to improve on that. Best to just leave it where it is, for as long as we possibly can.

At least keaping coal in the ground is better than taking it out and then trying to stuff CO2 back in.

But we cannot sit on coal,
1. Proclaim O2, H2O, and CO2 esential life chemicals which people have a right to consume and/or emit, and no govermnent can tax or regulate it.
2. Put a reasonable, not overly draconian limits on SO2, SO3, NO2 emissions.
3. Make sure that part of the energy funds is on a competitive basis gradually and continually redirected reseach and post-coal energy infrastructure.

Petr

I meant to say
... But we cannot sit on coal, blather about acid rain and a degre of global warming, while poor people are freezing.

You're implying that the only way to keep poor people from freezing is to hold their energy consumption up, instead of holding their heat losses down.  A heap of R-15 foam insulation will displace some coal this year, and for years to come; it's a gift that keeps on giving.

This winter for example China had a power shortage due to cold weather and to coal transportation issues. Now imagine you go to the leaders of China during that time and tell them to shut down their coal power plants because of AGW. What are the odds of success?

because they could invest in a green energy source that isn't affected by cold weather and that doesn't have transportation issues.

It's pretty much like telling 1.3 bln. people: you shouldn't eat bread you should eat truffles, it's better. Try with another argument.

It's more like telling people they shouldn't eat copious amounts of dirt, they should eat sensible amounts of bread.

China has 5 times the population of US and uses a little more than half of it's electricity.
To tell them they use "copious amounts of dirt", without us, the presumably rich guys, even being able to demonstrate how we could do with "little amounts of bread" is an absolute hypocrisy. It's like a person in a Mercedes telling the bicyclist by him: "Why don't you buy a Bentley and give up this bicycle?"

Try something else.

You keep moving the goalposts :-) My analogy fit the subject matter under discussion. Your addition of US consumption is valid, of course. It's like we're eating way too much steak that is clogging our arteries, when we should be eating sensible portions of fruits, grains, dairy, and vegetables.

You seem not to realize that the goal post is just one - that in the absence of a cheaper and more reliable alternative than coal, nothing has even the remote chance to replace it. The chance becomes even slimmer and goes to absurdity for relatively poor countries like China.

If coal replacement is to happen the rich guys must show how they can do it first, and they can't do even that. It's nuts to suggest them that clean tech will replace China's coal if we can't show how we can do it even in the obscenely rich USA.

It's pretty much like telling 1.3 bln. people: you shouldn't eat bread you should eat truffles, it's better. Try with another argument.

no, it's like telling people do you want your lights on reliably or not? do you want to freeze or not? if it keeps happening something different will be used to power homes.

If you've got something more reliable and affordible than coal, you can make serious money. Actually, you'd allready be making serious money. Just what do you propose? Honestly, we can have fun with this.

If you've got something more reliable and affordible than coal, you can make serious money.

if you read up further he says how are you going to convince coal plants to shut down because of AGW? I said they'd do it because of transportation problems that he said they had.

What exactly is your "more reliable" proposal?

Wind power? Solar power? You can not tell the wind to blow or the sun to shine whenever they need it. If over reliance on coal will cause failures every other winter, overrelience on wind and solar will cause them every week, or even every day. And these two options are not cheap at all - actually they are times as expensive.

From their point of view it'd be like suggesting to replace a cheap energy source that has certain, but manageble issues, with much more expensive sources that have even more, and much harder to manage issues. How exactly are you going to sell this idea?

You can not tell the wind to blow or the sun to shine whenever they need it.

Haha! I remember the Communist motivational songs on an ethiusiastically bright music, whith lyrics "... we will order the Sun to shine and rain to rain ... Towards Brighter Communistic Tomorrow ..."

Another joke from those days:

After the Americans land on the Moon, the Soviet leadership gathers and decides what will be their response. After a long discussion the Politburo chairman declares to the scientists:
- The Party decided - the Americans landed on the Moon, we are going to land on the Sun!
After a moment of bewilderment, someone says:
- But comrades, we can not land on the Sun, it's too hot!
There is another, longer discussion, and in the end the chairman anounces the decision:
- Comrades, the Party decided - we are going to land on the Sun during the night!
:)

You can not tell the wind to blow or the sun to shine whenever they need it.

You can't order the grass to grow any time either, but farmers have figured out how to manage the seasonal variations by baling hay.  You mow hay when it grows, and use it when you need it.

Among the storage schemes mentioned on this site, I see potential in:

  • Hot-water storage solar thermal.
  • Compressed-air energy storage.
  • Molten-salt heat storage.

These appear to address your implied objection.

Or pumped storage, or giant flywheels or enormous springs... but nothing is free.

"nothing is free"

Well, some things are, including wind & solar insolation, and PHEV/EV storage bought for another purpose (personal transportation).

And others things aren't, but they're relatively cheap.

Well, some things are, including wind & solar insolation,

Sure, but the infrastructure to utilize it sure isn't.

and PHEV/EV storage bought for another purpose (personal transportation).

Bull. This fantasy will never matriculate into a viable storage option.

And others things aren't, but they're relatively cheap.

They aren't! What do you mean by relatively cheap. Pumped storage is very cost competitive, but no one would describe it as cheap when taken in the context of the raw amount of reserve you have to have ready to supply a grid. All the other gee whiz options dont even come close.

"the infrastructure to utilize it sure isn't."

No, but the lack of fuel cost is very important.

"PHEV/EV storage bought for another purpose (personal transportation). - Bull. This fantasy will never matriculate into a viable storage option. "

Of course it will. I'm not talking about V2G, I'm talking about the obvious and simple fact that PHEV/EV's provide night time demand for wind and nuclear, and that dynamic charging will soak up wind intermittency.

"Pumped storage is very cost competitive, but no one would describe it as cheap when taken in the context of the raw amount of reserve you have to have ready to supply a grid"

Sure they would. The fact that pumped storage may not be scalable to handle all of our problems is different.

The simple truth is that wind intermittency will be not that difficult to handle with geographic diversity, demand management (including PHEV/EV dynamic charging), and backup production (this includes otherwise obsolete coal plants, and relatively inexpensive natural and biofuel gas peaker plants).

The greater truth is that we need all low-CO2 emission power sources, and in that context there really isn't competition between wind and nuclear. Nuclear advocates would be better off selling the benefits of nuclear, than making silly Caldicott-style arguments against wind.

Of course it will. I'm not talking about V2G, I'm talking about the obvious and simple fact that PHEV/EV's provide night time demand for wind and nuclear, and that dynamic charging will soak up wind intermittency.

Demand management I'm sure will someday manage intermittent generating capacity to some extent, but not in the next decade and not on any scale to manage a grid without dispatchable supply. This isn't just a problem with wind or solar, but also a problem with constant baseload generation like nuclear. Wind and solar are much more susceptable to demand/supply imbalances of course, which is why they'll be more expensive than nuclear if you have to build excess dispatchable power infrastructure.

The greater truth is that we need all low-CO2 emission power sources, and in that context there really isn't competition between wind and nuclear. Nuclear advocates would be better off selling the benefits of nuclear, than making silly Caldicott-style arguments against wind.

I don't think we're arguing from diametrically opposed positions as it may appear. Its simply that demand management is very limited, dispatchable supply is expensive, and these impose economic limits of penetration of certain resources. For instance HVDC lines crisscrossing the entire globe would certainly be a good thing for all power generation no matter what the source for grid stability and demand management, but the costs can quite large as a significant fraction of the generation infrastructure itself. I think we need more wind as its competitive in many cases as a small penetration of the grid. But the problem is there are naive arguments made for intermittent suppliers like wind that underestimate the costs of the required infrastructre necissary to manage that intermittent supply.

Right now wind is competitive, even cheap in many areas, because there is an abundance of dispatch capacity from natural gas infrastructure. I'm not so confident it will remain so if we either retire that infrastructure or outgrow the capacity it has for dispatching power by attempting to replace coal baseload with wind. I certainly wouldn't argue that we need less wind, and believe we need much more of it. But reliance on wind to supply energy in lieu of nuclear will, as it has in Germany, serve to increase the use of options such as coal and hit consumers with an even larger bill rather than actually making use of demand management, grid storage, and geographic diversity.

"Demand management I'm sure will someday manage intermittent generating capacity to some extent, but not in the next decade and not on any scale to manage a grid without dispatchable supply. "

Well, the key to thinking about this is the fact that wind and PHEV/EV's are growing at remarkably similar rates: Wind is 1.1% of KWH's in the US, and hybrids are 3.5% of new light vehicles, and both are doubling roughly every 18-20 months. Wind won't get to the 10-20% range where the current grid will start to have real problems for probably 10 years - by that time PHEV/EV's will have real market penetration. If wind is, say, 15% of KWH's in 15 years, and PHEV/EV's are using 5% of KWH's (perhaps 15% of night KWH's, and 1% of daytime KWH's), that would be a very, very nice match. PHEV/EV's could hand the night time surplus problem, and soak up essentially all of the intermittency.

"This isn't just a problem with wind or solar, but also a problem with constant baseload generation like nuclear. "

Sure - as we see from the value of the Ludington pumped storage facility, built for nuclear load following.

"I don't think we're arguing from diametrically opposed positions as it may appear. "

I agree.

"demand management is very limited"

What makes you think that? It seems to me that dynamic metering, and I/C and residential demand management have a lot of potential (especially with PHEV/EV's), and at less cost than new construction of peak generation or various forms of utility-scale storage.

"dispatchable supply is expensive"

I don't know - gas peaker plants can be pretty cheap. Further, coal can load-follow, and with luck we'll have a lot of underutilized gas and coal plants.

"HVDC lines crisscrossing the entire globe would certainly be a good thing "

I don't think that's necessary - it's more a matter of inter-connecting grids at the edges. Stuart's post about that was very much a worst-case scenario.

"there are naive arguments made for intermittent suppliers like wind"

Perhaps. I certainly wouldn't suggest using any one source for more than about 35% of generation (unless one source develops an overwhelming cost and/or reliability advantage, something nothing has today), and some advocates for renewables do seem to over-estimate how quickly we can ramp them up (a problem shared with nuclear advocates).

"wind is competitive, even cheap in many areas, because there is an abundance of dispatch capacity from natural gas infrastructure. I'm not so confident it will remain so if we either retire that infrastructure "

I would think it would make sense to keep that installed infrastructure, with it's sunk cost, for very occasional use. Same for at least some of coal.

"reliance on wind to supply energy in lieu of nuclear will, as it has in Germany, serve to increase the use of options such as coal "

Absolutely. I'm disappointed by the arguments I'v seen from Europeans that lumps nuclear with FF's. If climate change is our main problem, we obviously need nuclear.

I think the only analysis of the European perspective that makes sense is their recent history of world war - the Green movement was born in the anti-war movement, and Green's unconsciously link nuclear generation with weapons. I have to say that I agree that weapons proliferation is the main problem with nuclear - even nuclear construction in the First world has opportunity costs for renewable R&D - but it appears to me that PO and especially AGW are much larger problems, in part because energy prosperity and abundance will go a long way towards preventing the causes of warfare.

Right now wind is competitive, even cheap in many areas, because there is an abundance of dispatch capacity from natural gas infrastructure. I'm not so confident it will remain so if we either [1] retire that infrastructure or [2] outgrow the capacity it has for dispatching power by attempting to replace coal baseload with wind.

Why not try [3] convert the gas-fired turbines to CAES systems and maintain dispatchability while doubling the electric output per BTU of gas?  You can't break the laws of thermodynamics, but there are some clever ways to exploit them which are nearly as good.

I agree.

One quibble: it's important to emphasize when talking about backup systems like this that they would fall firmly in 3rd place behind geographic diversity, and demand management (including PHEV/EV dynamic charging). Doubling the electric output per BTU of gas depends on having surplus power due to peaks in production from intermittency, which one treats as having no value. An optimal system would maximize consumption of power when produced (to minimize such storage losses), and only use backup power on relatively rare occasions when most sources of power are in a trough simultaneously, and probably when such a trough is unusually long (say, low wind across the continent, in winter).

It's important to note that different wind farms have differing, predictable, production profiles that are non-correlated or inversely correlated, and that with some planning the aggregate production from multiple wind farms will have surprisingly low variance. Similarly, wind and solar are inversely correlated, so that together they are more reliable.

A well-tuned system, with multiple sources (wind, solar, nuclear, wave, geothermal, etc) would face such troughs relatively rarely.

* Joke mode *

How are we getting on with reverse-enginerrng those UFO's at Area 42 ?

My only hope is that we might somehow come to realize that it is in the long term interests of future generations to conserve and stretch out our non-renewable resources for as long as possible rather than to quickly burn them all up and exhaust them. We might still end up burning them all, but if we do it more slowly rather than more quickly, that might help to make AGW slightly less bad than it otherwise will be.

It is a very faint hope, I know the chances are slim to none.

I may sound defeatist, but fighting climate change is a lost battle, period.

Yes, I suspect you are correct.

What so many activists fail to accept is that we are already committed to increasing atmospheric CO2 concentration by 50 to 100ppm - given the schemes already proposed (e.g. Kyoto) and thought to be the most optimistic modern economies will do.

While on paper one would think more could be done sooner, usually what is ignored are opportunity costs and sunk investments. Given any quantity of energy we produce today via fossil fuels, building out alternatives will increase that until those alternatives can bootstrap the society into building alternative sources of energy only using non-fossil fuel derived energy. This is argued over and over by the interested parties, but many of them don't accept what is called the psychology of sunk investment.

AGW mitigation has no natural constituencies outside of activists who are deriving existential meaning from the activist activities. The people of the future (who will bear the brunt of the effects of AGW) aren't born yet and so can't vote.

AGW mitigation has no natural constituencies outside of activists who are deriving existential meaning from the activist activities.

All meaning is existential. Driving a BMW, living in a multi-million dollar mansion, owning and operating a million dollar yacht etc provide existential meaning to the kinds of status conscious people who derive meaning from such activities. Claiming that the activities of such people are 'natural' while the activities of people who claim to feel some sense of identity with the collective human destiny is a pure affectation strikes me as unprovable, subjective BS. Personally I think that we should be concentrating on reducing our total level of economic activity rather than on AGW mitigation per se. I say this not because I derive existential meaning from affecting Buddhist simplicity, but because, having an IQ greater than that of peat moss, I understand that the proper response to resource depletion is economic simplification.

having an IQ greater than that of peat moss,

Around here we like to compare ourselves to yeast which is probably more appropriate anyway since yeast die in their own crap :)

You are right. Yeast is a better comparison.

Matt: Question re global temps and climate: Eventually the supply of emissions will turn down as the supply of raw material to burn declines-is the theory that when that happens (lets say 2043) the temps will stabilize then gradually grow cooler each decade? What is the estimated lag period in years between total emissions and temps?

Carbon dioxide has an atmospheric lifetime of between 50 - 200 years. This means that carbon dioxide will be present in the atmosphere for at least 50 years before it is absorbed by a sink or becomes part of another chemical reaction. Consequently, carbon dioxide emitted into the atmosphere today could cause global warming for up to two centuries to come.

The UN Environment Programme (UNEP) and the World Agroforestry Centre (ICRAF) have a Seven Billion Tree Campaign. In just 18 months it has catalyzed the planting of two billion trees.

Its actually worse than that. There is a substantial tail to the CO2 lifetime, extending to a few thousand years. Just the thermal inertia of the upper layers of the ocean delays warming by a couple of decades. Then we have a bunch of postulated slower feedbacks, glaciers gradually melt, allowing more sunlight to be absorbed, permafrost slowly melts, releasing more greenhouse gases etc. That and the fact that a good deal of GW is currently masked by the cooling effect of aerosol pollutants. So when we stop burning the stuff, there will be an immediate spike in temperature as our pollutants based sunshade disappears.

So when we stop burning the stuff, there will be an immediate spike in temperature as our pollutants based sunshade disappears.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/07/8774/
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-articles/read.main?id=85

And what I was digging for:

September 11 – 14, 2001 had the biggest diurnal temperature range of any three-day period in the past 30 years,” said Andrew M. Carleton1. Not in three decades had there been such a large temperature spread between the daytime highs and the nighttime lows. Furthermore, the increase in DTR during those three days was more than double the national average for regions of the United States where contrail coverage was previously known to be most abundant, such as the Midwest, northeast, and northwest regions. The specific increase in the range was 2°F, which in three days was twice the amount the average temperature had increased by over thirty years time1. This is evidence that contrails do alter the climate of the land they drift above.

And I 'member thinking on the 13th "seems warmer, sky clearer"

The CO2 impulse response function is here:
http://unfccc.int/resource/brazil/carbon.html

The figures you cite are based on Hansen.
If coal is as small a resource as is posited, then the build-up of CO2 will be lower than that assumed for the lowest of the IPCC's scenarios.
That might still be a problem, but presumably less of a problem than if we had unlimited coal to burn, as the IPCC assumes.

That is Hansen's achilles heel-he assumes gigantic reserves.

Here's our initial discussion of Kharecha and Hansen

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2559

and here's a direct link to their paper "Implications of "peak oil" for atmospheric CO2 and climate"

http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.2782

Both should be read...very interesting.

I would agree with may of the previous comments that in a resource constrained future, it would seem illogical for people to voluntarily forgo the use of fossil fuels due to climate change. The thing I find so puzzling is that Climate Change has gotten a lot more reaction from the public than Peak Oil. It seems that people are more worried about temperature increase than economic collapse.

Personally, I think we need to take a hard line on pollutants from coal (sulfer, heavy metals) that have immediate effects, and not worry about carbon. This is especially true because the Chinese and Russians don't care about carbon.

It will be interesting to see where the debate on climate change vs. energy availability is in 10 years.

The mass of people worry about what the MSM tells them to worry about.

Politically climate change is an acceptable topic - exactly because it doesn't have an immediate impact; while Peak Oil is and will be a public taboo for many years to come. Out of sight out of mind.

Actually, it probably has more to do with several big name entertainment celebrities being highly visible wrt AGW. To my knowledge, there are NO big name entertainment celebrities that are taking a visible position wrt peak oil.

I think Leonardo DiCaprio probably comes closest...but it is all encompassing GW, Oil, conserve, etc...

http://wip.warnerbros.com/11thhour/

Politically climate change is an acceptable topic - exactly because it doesn't have an immediate impact

Not an immediate impact? Exactly that is an untested assumption. Come to Australia, which is already hard hit.

There is a false sense that the short-term costs of climate change will be small.

A HOST of recent observations indicate that climate change is happening now, faster than expected by most scientists, and indeed by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) since its fourth assessment report was finalised this year.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/warming-puts-heat-on-political-le...

Good work; as the oil winds down we will all become increasingly familiar with the coal realities given that it is the alternative devil we know. I liked the relationship of a gallon of diesel per ton. If its extraction were self powering, as it was in the 19th century, we would be using maybe a half percent of the product to extract itself, discounting machinery and explosives, assuming about 250 gal/ton of coal equivalent BTU. I know these figures are 'off', but it sure is an impressive EROEI.

This article also disregards the fact that the cordilleran reserves - the ones that are so conveniently exposed - continue all the way to Alaska, and the combined Canadian/US reserves to population ratio is much greater than what is stated. I have heard a figure of 600 billion tons recoverable in Alberta and that disregards the section continuing up to Alaska. Again, this is just from memory and should be niggled by those in the know. My point is that if oil gets scarce, the more likely option is to increase production in NA rather than import from SA.

The argument that insufficient purchasing power or capital availability will hamper extraction is, well, I'm holding back my laughter. Considering the vast amounts of purchasing power currently producing disposable crap for disposable incomes and the vast capital squandered on the machinery to produce it, a simple redeployment of human initiative is all that is required. If we built stuff to last we could ready up three quarters of the work force. Plus eliminate the energy squandered on building junk over and over. Hell, we might even be able to do solar. Just imagine.

The argument that there is some economic limitation on human endeavour is simply erroneous. The fact that we seem to have imposed such a limitation on ourselves is sad, but not binding. This reminds me of the great wheezing that went on when the national debt rose to some incomprehensible figure like 100 billion dollars at the end of WW2. We were going to be shackled to the wheel of penury for generations according to the blowhards of the day. Heinberg should steer clear of economics and just stick to the real 'important questions'.

You might be right on most of your points, but at the end of WW2 all economic competitors to the USA had been literally destroyed-running up a giant debt to destroy all competitors isn't remotely comparable to the 2008 situation.

I have heard a figure of 600 billion tons recoverable in Alberta and that disregards the section continuing up to Alaska.

I can't wait to see what Alberta looks like after they're finished with the oil sands and the coal mining.

Environmental pressures being what they are today, when most mine sites are reclaimed it is hard, ten years later, to know that they had been there.

the old sites will look like this.

Alberta issues first-ever oil sands land reclamation certificate
EDMONTON_Alberta has designated a rolling forested area with hiking trails and lookout points as the first piece of oil sands land to be reclaimed.

http://www.topix.com/business/oil-gas/2008/03/alberta-issues-first-ever-...

104 freaking hectares? Give me a break, please!

I grew up in Ohio when the laws and regulations went into effect requiring reclamation of strip mined areas. The strip mines closed. They went away, further west. They closed before the laws went into effect so they did not have to pay the additional costs imposed by the new law.

TANSTAAFL. And most corporations seem willing to run away from social responsibilities, especially after they've dumped a ton of crap in the commons and already taken their profit.

I think you are underestimating the constraints within the current environment.

It's not that easy to "just" eliminate some junk, or "just" build this or that. Almost all of these things will face significant resistance, most of it political. Of course we can go to an autocratic government, and I guess at some point of time this will happen. But wait, this is exactly what happened in the 1940-s... surprise, surprise. Anyone want to guess how good our autocratic government will be?

I think what will get built in the end is some combination of solar for peaking in hot areas and for EV's there, and factory-built nuclear for base load, along the lines of this:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/05/hyperion-uranium-hydride-nuclear.html
Next Big Future: Hyperion uranium hydride nuclear battery update

Toshiba have looked at a similar configuration. These would be producible by the thousand, and burn fuel 50 times as effectively as giant modern plants.
You could also build CHP running on this, for very economical heating.
When things get tough in a few years I would expect opposition to melt away, and delays are mostly licensing rather than technical issues.

It's the tough times that will produce the force for change and sweep away the political obstacles.

An autocratic government is concerned with being effective first and 'good' second. Inasmuch as it has time and initiative left after the first priority...I am cautiously optimistic, but autocracies have a dubious track record. The point is human organization and how we achieve it. Money is both a tool and a weapon, depending upon how you see it and use it. I am hopeful that an energy crisis begets a better form of organization for the world but we have along way to go in a short time.

Speaking of autocratic governments, isn't it time to renovate Burma? Regime change? Autocracies have to justify their existence too.

The problem is, what are autocratic governments interested in being effective at?
Remaining in power without regard for the sufferings of their own people is the answer, time after time, with Burma and North Korea two recent examples.
Efficiency, progress and human happiness do not interest them.

When Americans really start suffering that will usher in an entirely different political paradigm that is unpredictable.

It's not that easy to "just" eliminate some junk, or "just" build this or that. Almost all of these things will face significant resistance, most of it political.

The resistance to "eliminating junk" will be economic, not political. Anyone who has a decent income stream wants to protect it. And how can they want anything else given the nature of our economic system? If the industry you have been working in for the last 15 years disappears or contracts to a fraction of its former size, it's up to you to find a new career path and support your family while you are doing it. In addition the savings which alone can prevent a penurious and miserable old age will be threatened. Of course no one is going to voluntarily give up their job in such a situation. Only in a social atmosphere of mutual support, where people's ability educate their children, get decent medical care, and to have confidence of economic support in their old age is not dependent on short term job security or on storing up huge amounts economic value (A complete delusion by the way. Society as a whole does not store up value; We consume what we produce.) can economic contraction be managed in a sensible way. Such an atmosphere of mutual support does not require an autocratic government; It requires social intelligence on the part of a majority of the population.

I realize, of course, that many of you are already raising up your crosses to ward off the evil vampires of communism and socialism. But the reality of our mutual dependence in an economy with a high degree of specialization of labor is an objective fact. Unless we can build an economic system which makes recognition of this fact the central pillar of economic organization, rather than pursuing the madman's dream of individual financial independence, I see no hope of avoiding social chaos in a resource limited world.

I liked the relationship of a gallon of diesel per ton. If its extraction were self powering, as it was in the 19th century, we would be using maybe a half percent of the product to extract itself...

Large low-speed diesels can be converted to burn slurried coal, at some cost in longevity between rebuilds.  It is doubtful that a lack of petroleum will shut down either coal mines or coal trains.

I've noticed that when people talk about coal in the US, they usually don't look at Alaska. While I noted that Alaska was shown on the map (albeit at a tiny size--listed as 1/2 scale but really more like 1/4 scale [with the panhandle of Alaska in Florida, the Aleutian Islands should be in California--not Texas!], Alaska wasn't discussed in the article--yet the coal supplies in Alaska are vast. Indeed Alaska has more coal than the entire lower 48 combined (as much as 5,500 billion tons). Granted transportation is a major problem; much is low quality (sub-bituminous); a lot of it is deeply burried and logistics are a great deal more difficult...but there are some offsetting factors: the majority of the coal is very low sulfur.

I've seen other reports that supposedly include coal in Alaska, but in reality don't--they just include the active mines, which are mining tiny areas. While it is true that proven reserves are much smaller than the hypothetical reserves, I've seen the data on the 'hypothetical' and I would rate it as better than hypothetical (my Mom did a lot of the well logs for test oil wells in the western north slope of Alaska; they *all* hit coal--in an area 500 miles long by over 100 miles deep. This is an area larger than most states. Might not all be mineable, but there are other ways to get the energy out...also keep in mind that Alaska is poorly explored for coal and comparing hypothetical reserves in Alaska with hypothetical reserves in, say, Kentucky won't give you a very accurate picture.

Thanks for pointing out the huge amount of coal in Alaska. We sometimes forget Alaska in our analyses.

I think the big issue with coal in Alaska is that we really cannot transport it very well. If we built a lot of ships, perhaps we could transport a small amount of it by boat.

Theoretically, if we had a whole lot if electricity transmission lines, we could burn the coal in Alaska, and just transport the electricity. But getting the electricity transmission lines would also be a problem. It often takes 10 years to get electric transmission lines built in the USA. If we have to go all the way across Canada, plus add new lines in Alaska and the 48 states, I am guessing it would require 20+ years.

People have mentioned the long lead times currently required to build long-distance rail lines or long-haul transmission lines for electricity. It is probably relevant from a policy perspective to consider how that situation is likely to change once the rolling blackouts hit Washington, DC.

I think the big issue with coal in Alaska is that we really cannot transport it very well. If we built a lot of ships, perhaps we could transport a small amount of it by boat.

I suspect the scale of naval shipping is larger than you think. The world's busiest port - Shanghai - handles tonnage equal to half the US's total coal production, and total world shipping was about 15 times that (7.4B tons).

The US doesn't have any ports even a fifth that size on the west coast, but half of that capacity - 0.25Bton/yr - has been added in just four years, and more shipping than that is added every year, suggesting that neither port capacity nor shipping capacity would be a technical problem.

There's plenty of coal in the US. Look at China. They have been able to ramp up coal production far in excess of their logistic curve. Heinberg is playing games with the demand nature(historical growth rate) in the logistic curve.

The challenge is to use coal wisely.

We simply have to bite the bullet and phase-out all current coal technology and move toward IGCC-CCS. It's not so big really--340 GW. At $1500 per kw that's about $500 billion dollars for new generators(over 25 years?).

I have high hopes that the Obama administration will do that. With IGCC-CCS there's no problem with using high sulfur coal because the exhaust CO2 is buried.

The site of IGCC-CCS will have to be carefully done close to CO2 burial sites and coal mines, with electricity being moved by high voltage transmission lines but this too can be done advantageously as many of those areas also have very large renewable wind resources such as Wyoming, Montana, etc and that should allow us to increase our share of renewable electricity.

Another advantage of IGCC-CCS is that it replaces the
the old oil refinery with a syngas refinery which can produce electricity, ammonia, methanol, methane or hydrogen from domestic coal instead of foreign oil. This way it diversifies the energy infrastructure greatly. For example, if the wind is blowing strongly, the IGCC unit could switch from electricity generation to methanol(which can be converted to gasoline by catalyst)or fertilizer.

Another advantage of IGCC is that it generates power more efficiently by gas turbines and waste heat boilers than old Rankine cycle steam plants,
probably 10% more and with hydrogen stationary fuel cells 20% more.

This IGCC-CCS technology is a real game changer and a major threat to Big Oil.

There's an energy penalty of about 20% for IGCC-CCS which is equivalent to moving from a high rank(BTU coal) to a lower rank one. The capital costs are higher but we just need to bite the bullet as I said.

As far as Hansen and the IPCC go, they have said that there is no problem with coal technologies that don't emit CO2.

The arguments of Heinberg are focused on the distant past, but if we ignore the game changing nature of coal gasification IGCC with CCS we will probably end up exactly where they think we will. It will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

We simply have to bite the bullet and phase-out all current coal technology and move toward IGCC-CCS.

I agree that IGCC is where we need to go. I'm not convinced about CCS, but the good thing is that if you replace current coal plants with IGCC, you are in a position to add CCS later if it is beneficial/economical.

Just out of curiosity -- are the generators in an old coal-fired plants reusable in an IGCC plant? I could see where turbines might be problematic, if their requirements for steam pressure and temperature are not well-matched to that produced by the second phase of an IGCC. But the generators shouldn't care what spins them, and speed differences can be accommodated by simple gearing arrangements.

Nope, he old generators must go. This is no big deal, most coal fired plants are ancient. And no tricks like ultra-critical fluid bed steam generators either. We've got to bury the CO2.

Besides that's not the real advantage of this path. Won't it be have the flexibility of making gasoline as well as electricity?
You could balance wind or solar with fossil fuels allowing much more than 20% loading on the electric grid.

One reason this isn't getting done is the reduction of vertically integrated corporations. When the grid and even the oil business started business knew how to do everything(like Ford's River Rouge plant). Either that or the government built the infrastructure. Over the last 55 years that self-suffiency ethic has gone thanks to the freak-conomists and MBA types. People just don't know how to integrate such a system, make it a reality.

The oil companies would have no role to play because their feedstock is imported.

Windfall-tax'em to death.

are the generators in an old coal-fired plants reusable in an IGCC plant?

Differing with majorian here; the Wabash River repowering project did use the plant's existing Westinghouse steam turbine and generator for the steam end of the system, so it is indeed possible.  However, new turbines are likely to be more efficient and may be cost-effective.

What about venting the CO2 to algae or fast growing biomass inside a large passive greenhouse?

The resulting biomass could be used to make liquid fuels or co-fired with the coal in the plant.

I think this is much more likely/economical than burying CO2 in the ground. I think this is probably the direction we will go in. That's why I like IGCC. You have a concentrated source of CO2 coming out, so you can change what you do with it as technologies change.

You wouldn't really be capturing the CO_2 anymore if you did this, now.

Ok...lets think that:

1) The CO2 absorb'n is driven by sunlight. So what's the nighttime plan?
2) Material costs for the greenhouse?
3) effectivness in snow-belt?
4) prevent non-wanted biomass in the environment
5) Extra cost in land/personel (might be lumped as 2)

Consider the above while chanting about 'profit!' so the john15's and fraudprefects of the world stay happy.

OK, another one of those "simply replace this with that". Several points:
1) It will be much more expensive than you think - $1500/kW is for the old technology, IGCC is referred to yet unproven in the industry. Try with double this price. Double it again for adding CCS and HVDC transmission. In addition starting such a large scale project will exert enormous price pressure on everything - from materials to personell and costs overruns will be horrendous
2) The "sunk investment" problem - as long as the old generators do the job, there is zero, naught incentative to invest in new ones. As long as there is no incentative it won't be done, period. The government can not simply mandate it, because utilities don't have the necessary capital and can't take the risk individually or even if they consolidate. The only way is the government to finance it from scratch plus to build the infrastructure with taxpayers money. What are the chances for this in our environment?
3) Do we have that many suitable sites for CCS? How long until they are depleted? Remember that we are going large scale so this means hundreds of plants pumping CO2 all over the country. And you know at some point there simply may not be room underground for all those billions of cubic meters...

Just forget it man, CCS is the worst pipe-dream possible because its cost maybe playing with the fate of future generations.

Another advantage of IGCC is that it generates power more efficiently by gas turbines and waste heat boilers than old Rankine cycle steam plants, probably 10% more and with hydrogen stationary fuel cells 20% more.

I beg to differ.  The cold-gas efficiency of the gasifier at Wabash River (read the DOE reports for more) is 76%; the waste heat is roughly enough to drive the air-separation plant via a steam cycle.  If this gas was fed directly to SOFC's running at 60% efficiency, the net electric efficiency would be 0.76 * 0.60 = 45.6%, roughly 40% greater than historical steam-cycle plants; if the remaining heat energy was used to drive a steam cycle at modern efficiencies of 40%, the additional recovery would be 0.76 * 0.40 * 0.40 = 11.2% for a total net efficiency of 56.8%.  This is about 24% more in absolute terms and a whopping 72% more in relative terms.

A fuel-cell cycle does not require the fuel gas to be expanded to atmospheric pressure, so use of pressurized fuel cells followed by condensation of the product gases as soda water would make carbon capture nearly free (in energy cost).

I have noticed that many of the trains are being pulled as well as pushed which tells me the cars themselves have reached a structural limit. We will probably have to convert those diesels to coal fired locomotives. Locomotive can not get the power to the track without adding more and more weight to the boiler.

Mix 5-micron coal with 50% water and it will run a diesel engine. GE proved this in 700 hours of track testing over 10 years ago.

I'm curious why there are no hybrid trains. If each of the cars had a subset of its wheels powered by small (mass produced) electric motors - then the engine on the front would not need enormous weight (traction) to move the train and it could, as needed, either generate the electricity itself or pick it up from an overhead cable or a third rail. Also, there would be no need for engines front, middle and rear.

Diesel locomotives are already series hybrids with electric drive. There's no mechanical transmission on them. The big difficulty with your plan is complexity. Freight cars are best kept cheap and simple. Add motors and wiring to them and the maintenance required goes up enormously. Also, the railroad may not necessarily own the freight cars, e.g. might be owned bye the customer.

So, we could already be at Peak Coal in the US. Let us say Dr. Rutledge is correct. Then the peak will look like the lower curve here:

If NET energy is already falling in US coal, then a large increase in production would be needed to offset that decline. But the lower curve has only a small production increase possible.

So it is possible the US has reached peak energy. Oil imports are in decline. Nat Gas usage is in decline. Coal energy is in decline. Everything else is pretty small potatoes.

In an earlier post I have tried to explain why the current thinking of how much coal is left, and will be used, is wrong. Well consider that I am gently coughing again.

The reasons that a large part of the coal in different parts of the United States stopped being mined related in part to the amount of sulfur in the coal. When the requirements for cleaner combustion came in it became cheaper to mine and use the coals from Wyoming than it was to mine, say the coals in Illinois. However just because, at that time, it became uneconomic to mine the coal (transferring it from reserve to resource) does not mean that in that exchange somebody went along and removed the coal. It is still there. If it is uneconomic to mine at the moment that does not mean that it will continue to be so.

In Botswana, for example, until last Christmas it was cheaper to import power from South Africa, rather than exploit their own coal resource. Well now that South Africa is defaulting in their ability to supply customers, all of a sudden that resource is back to being a reserve and will be exploited for a long time to come. At present they mine one million tons a year, they are planning to increase that tenfold. Their reserve is estimated at 300 billion tons.

The anthracite in Pennsylvania did not disappear - the mines flooded, as has been discussed here before, and the anthracite is still there and when needed it will likely rejoin the reserve.

It is often not appreciated how poorly the mining industry does in developing new technology. This is in part because the public demands that coal be sold at the lowest possible cost. (All you have to do is see how loudly people scream when electricity bills go up). Because there is so much coal around the business remains competitive, and it has been more vicious than it is today. I can remember when a mine would not put in a safer roof bolt (it had a longer anchor) because they could not afford the additional cost (less than $0.50 a bolt) since it would price them out of their local market.

Now this does not mean that it is that hard to improve on technology - why the Jet Propulsion Lab at Cal Tech was even tasked with inventing one in the last energy crisis - and eventually did. Rather it has been that at this stage in the game there is really no need to develop anything better. When all you have to do is shovel the coal into trucks and then a train, it is hard to find an incentive, or anyone willing, to develop better methods of mining.

There are however significantly improved technologies for mining that are not currently used since there is no need for them, at the current stage of the market, but that, if the historical record is preserved (grin) will be available when needed.

I am a little disappointed that the author did not choose to examine and cite opposing opinions to his own, it tends to make the discussion more a propaganda exercise than one of rational debate.

Thanks for the perspective.
What would be your evaluation of the possibility of using in-situ coal combustion?

Seems rational to me - whats the propaganda?

That is the point - if only one side of an argument is presented, in a persuasive way, and no opposing arguments are brought up, then it is not a debate, or discussion - and as I tried to show, there are significant issues with this perspective.

HO: To counter Heinberg's article you have to present some numbers, not just anecdotes. It wasn't clear if you are claiming the article is materially wrong, or just not perfect.

I don't think he wants to take over the thread for someone else's article.
Here is a link to Heading Out's own articles, which have plenty of figures in them!
http://www.theoildrum.com/user/Heading+Out/stories

The underlying premise to many of the papers that discuss how rapidly coal will fade as a future fuel seem to me to assume that once a block of coal becomes uneconomic to mine (and moves from being a reserve to a resource) that it will continue to be so from there on out. I think that position is fundamentally wrong.

But your not considering cost increases or the ever receding margin problem. As our current resource get more expensive everything gets more expensive. At the point that better technology could be used to utilize a resource and exploit it then its not clear that the costs would not have risen to the point that its still not economic.

I'm not saying it will work out that way but its a factor that you have to consider. For example with the tar sands I actually expect that we won't be exploiting them within 5-10 years for this reason.

The problem is that the profit margin is not the same as price. Selling a 100k car for a profit of 1 dollar is the same as selling 2 dollar toy for a profit of 1 dollar. Then of course you have opportunity cost issues these coal mines would have to be competitive. Also at least for the high sulfur coals a lot of people in America are actually resistant to continuing to rape our environment for the American lifestyle.

I think the political backlash agianst never ending growth will be a big factor in a few years.

One problem with gutting the middle class is you have a lot less people willing to turn a blind eye to the problems of growth once they are no longer benefiting. Effectively I think WT ELP will be a political force to be reckoned with.

This does not seem to me an accurate reading of human nature.
People who are poor, and most particularly those who had had a lot more, are going to be far more growth orientated, and will not let anyone stand in the way of their getting some comfort back.

No they attack the wealthy SUV owner. Seriously though you only need the percentage large enough to slow or delay these sorts of projects. Without a middle class you have the situation that these will be viewed as project designed to make sure the "Rich" continue to live a good lifestyle. A lot of these people will move to the renewable energy camp instead of taking the route of we want our lifestyle back dammed the cost.

I've noticed just from comments that a lot of people that have opted out of the rat race either by choice or by a economic event are in the renewable energy group. Given global warming peak oil etc this renewable environmental force should be strong enough in the next few years to delay attempts to continue our current lifestyle via aggressive exploitation of coal. The current environmental movement is a minority in the US and its been fairly successful already.

Certainly a move to a more authoritarian government would make these points mute but socially the US is ready to swing back to a more tree hugger viewpoint and reject materialism. This happens periodically and the last time was in the 1960-1970's. Before that we could say the great depression was a forced swing back from the materialism of the 1920's. Before this in the 1800's we had the Grangers and the National parks and the trust busters etc. The reason for the long run of materialism this time was primarily because Clinton pretty much continued the Republican policies instead of acting as a break. So we have had a long run of materialism since Jimmy Carter. It coincided with cheap oil prices which is probably not a coincidence.
Also by expanding sideways into renewable energy the poorer people who would be working on the expansion would see the most benefit. I think most people would choose putting up a wind turbine over working in a coal mine any day of the week. So it fits fairly nicely with the needs of the people better than expanding coal production.

A long overdue backlash agianst rampant materialism is due. In my opinion the only thing that will prevent the US from finally moving permanently to a renewable path albeit too little to late is a change in the form of government either overtly or subtly.

Well, I certainly hope not.
In the great doomer vs cornucopian debate I am a dodomer and a cornucopian - IOW I think that we will either totally fail, and mass die-off and probably nuclear war will polish off something like 99% of people, or by using every technological trick we have, plus a lot of renewables technology and conservation, we can maintain an advanced standard of living.
The one thing which seems entirely improbable to me is that some kind of hippie paradise will keep everyone fed.
For a start continuing to allow objections to paralyse any action at all and to vastly increase costs does not seem possible in a strained society, desperately trying to adopt new energy sources.
There is a lot to be learnt from some of the attitudes which have created things like the Passivhaus movement and conservation, but in my view the idea that we can do everything with renewables and conservation is unrealistic.
Of course, this may not characterise your viewpoint, as hopefully most of us do not just have a common set of attitudes, following some sort of party line, but form our own judgements which may cross party lines, so to speak.
Mine certainly do, as I dislike McMansions and if I lived in Australia would want to eat kangaroo, not cows!
Techno-hippie, perhaps? :-)

Its not my personal viewpoint :)

I'd suspect my own personal viewpoint is offensive to all of the extreme proposals :)

In my opinion because of global warming we should focus on nuclear not coal.
We should keep our current coal fired plants and possibly build a few more if we have to.

Next expansion of wind and solar should be prioritized and heavily subsidized. But I can't see a way out with out the nuclear.
Finally expansion of coal is not the answer for a large number of reasons and in fact in my opinion certain to fail.

"As our current resource get more expensive everything gets more expensive. "

Not really. Let's take the example of Massey's diesel consumption of one gallon per ton of coal. Coal is selling for, very very roughly, $50/ton. If oil goes up by $42/barrel (or roughly 35%, right now), the cost of mining coal (for diesel, which is by far the biggest source of oil-related costs)only goes up by $1!

Oil rises 35%, coal rises 2%. That's not really significant.

Not to mention that if diesel gets very expensive Massey will hybridize, then electrify their trucks.

I appreciate HO's cautionary note. I'm a big fan of Heinberg's; he's done a lot of heavy lifting and great work out at the cutting edge of PO consciousness-raising. But there is a definite vantage point that I wish he were more explicitly self-aware about; this point came up in passing in the exchange here at TOD a few months ago on the future of industrial agriculture/relocalization.

The piece of all this that I'm finding most fascinating/disturbing is the pace at which change must be made, a meme launched most effectively by Robert Hirsch. I am anxious about not only the possibility of massive misallocation of increasingly scarce resources barking up various trees for solutions (faster than either markets or autocratic regimes may be able to track), but also the cultural predisposition (especially in the US) to go after quick answers to continue BAU.

[Footnote: In that context, btw, I'm hoping Obama is elected in November, since one of the most impressive traits he brings is a certain deliberative calmness.]

The problem with commodities, including coal, metals, and petroleum, is that commodities have historically been a buyer's market, with the low cost producer dominating the market, and location being relatively unimportant, owing to cheap transport. The only exception has been during wartime. My copper is the same as anyone else's copper, for example, and if someone else can meet the demand cheaper, my copper mine will be forced to close. This aspect has definitely discouraged innovation in mining, as pointed out by HO. Nevertheless, mines will innovate, if innovation lowers their cost of production, so that they can stay open longer. This has happened repeatedly in the past, and has involved some very clever technologies.

Most people can't seem to get their heads around the fact that for petroleum, and perhaps for coal, "the low cost producer" has largely become a myth. That is, energy now appears to be a seller's market. Is clever technology really needed in such a situation? Not to lower the costs of production, obviously, nor even to expand production, if the price keeps rising enough, but only to continue production at some comfortable level, as depletion occurs (in underground coal mining this might involve replacing room and pillar mining with longwall mining, for example, to increase recovery at increased cost). The really, really clever technology is obviously needed by those who want to replace fossil fuels. They have to beat their cost.

Perhaps the earthquake in China is mother nature's wrath for all the coal they're burning. The geothermal heat of the earth is the result of radiation from uranium & thorium, which powers underground activity.

Richard Heinberg,

I hope you read the comments for your post. Here is one from Tad Patzek that I would encourage you to ponder:

"Again, many people will raise their eyes, but again talking about energy solutions without talking about the population problems is just like mopping the floor with the faucets running on. So that is #1 problem. "

what population problems?

You are right. Let's continue to ignore the increasing world and US populations and just talk about having too few resources for the population we had at the last census. It's a tried and true paradigm that the Environmentalists have used for years so you know it's gotta be a good one.

how do you know we have too few resources?

Richard Heinberg, Colin Campbell, T. Boone Pickens, Matthew Simmons, Kenneth Deffeyes, The Energy Watch Group, Stephen Leeb, M. King Hubbert, The Club of Rome, Malthus, and Paul Roberts presented a good case that we did. Not to mention posters on this blog. If you have a different viewpoint, I'd like to hear it.

Richard Heinberg, Colin Campbell, T. Boone Pickens, Matthew Simmons, Kenneth Deffeyes, The Energy Watch Group, Stephen Leeb, M. King Hubbert

all those are oil people and I don't listen to Heinberg at all. what do those people know about copper or gold?

The Club of Rome, Malthus, and Paul Roberts

where is there figures on gold peaking this year or silver peaking?

all those are oil people and I don't listen to Heinberg at all. what do those people know about copper or gold?

Before moving onto other finite resources I would like to hear you provide your argument for how we have enough oil, not only for the current population at the present time, but also for larger future populations and at every time interval along the way.

where is there figures on gold peaking this year or silver peaking?

Metal is, in theory I believe, infinitely recyclable. But with an infinitely growing population, even infinitely recyclable wouldn't cut it. Why do you want to bring the discussion to gold, silver and copper?

And for gold and silver at least, most is mined so as to sit in someones vault, waiting to be sold at some future time, so peak gold or silver would hardly affect anyone but speculators. Hardly comparable to petroleum and coal.

"Before moving onto other finite resources I would like to hear you provide your argument for how we have enough oil"

I never said we had plenty of oil, I asked for proof we didn't have enough resources. oil is just one resource, that's why I brought it up.

I never said we had plenty of oil, I asked for proof we didn't have enough resources. oil is just one resource, that's why I brought it up.

I am not sure what your point is. We only need to be lacking in a single critical resource for population growth to make that situation worse - for population to be a problem.

You asked "How do you know we have too few resources?".

Normally someone would make that statement when they feel there are plenty of resources. So which do you think:

a) abundance of all necessary resources
b) just right amount of all necessary resources
c) too few of all necessary resources

Or worded this way:

Regarding too few resources:
a) There are no essential resources of which there are too few.
b) Oil is the only essential resource of which there is too little.
c) There are multiple essential resources of which there is too little.

Even more to the point, how about Norman Borlaug? http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1970/borlaug-acceptan...

There can be no permanent progress in the battle against hunger until the agencies that fight for increased food production and those that fight for population control unite in a common effort.

It would really help as well if the major religions did not fight against population control.

FiniteQuantity,

Glad you raised that topic again -- the population problem seems to a taboo right across the peak oil political spectrum. Great quote, too.

I'm sure you are familiar with the site below, but perhaps other readers aren't:

http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/

Glad you raised that topic again -- the population problem seems to a taboo right across the peak oil political spectrum.

Yes it is very suprising and disappointing - not only the Peak Oil spectrum but also the Global Warming and Environmentalist spectrums virtually silent on population growth. Simmons mentions conservation as being a big thing to do but says not a peep about the 2 million people streaming into the US each year which gets combined with more births than deaths. I guess it just hits on two sacred things - large families and in the case of rich countries like the United States - immigration. Also surprising is that when it is discussed on this forum, the view is in so many words - "don't worry, UN projections say population will peak in 2050 at (number varies)".

Great quote, too.

It was a nice surprise to see one of the "energy problem gurus" not only mention it, but put it as the #1 problem.

I'm sure you are familiar with the site below, but perhaps other readers aren't:

I had not heard about it. Thanks for the link.

Bingo! 70 million net resource-hungry humans added to the planet EVERY YEAR. Finding a replacement for fossil fuels would be the worst possible result - the more humans we make, the more will suffer in the inevitable dieoff - because the earth is finite. There is no choice - every minute we continue BAU means an increase in human suffering in the future. Permaculture, eating low on the food chain & frugal living is the future, why not switch ASAP and follow the path of least suffering?

deuterium, 'Mother Nature' is a fictionalized reference to the natural processes of the planet. There is no one there to feel wrath or anything else.

IMHO, the earthquake was prematurely instigated on that fault by the weight of the accumulating water in the Three Gorges dam. There will be more.

I been thinking, how will we mine and transport coal with oil at $1,000 a barrel and then with no oil. Lots of strip mining equipment is not electric powered and never will be (we are out of time and capital) and if you can imagine an electric powered rail system, with all of the infrastructure required, you will make Rube Goldberg look like an amateur. In sum, we may have all of the coal in the world..........but the question is: can we mine and transport it ): Did I hear someone say Coal to liquids (CTL), ahh think again my friends, no such plants on the drawing board, no spare capital floating around, and not enough trains to transport coal. Looks like were #%$% out of luck. Time to stop dreaming and get to reality: conservation and risk management/contingency planning.

Since our solution for mass transit in most of our cities is to use technology that is over a hundred years old - trolleys - bringing back the steam locomotive for freight transport would be right in line with that.

Lots of strip mining equipment is not electric powered and never will be (we are out of time and capital) and if you can imagine an electric powered rail system, with all of the infrastructure required, you will make Rube Goldberg look like an amateur.

I don't know if it was an article or a reader comment, but someone made a point which does provide hope regarding such things. He was talking about powering the US with wind turbines and estimated it would take something like 9 million to do it. Which sounds quite formidable. But then he pointed out that in the 7 years from 1939 to 1945, the United States built over 300,000 aircraft. Get rid of NASA, get rid of most of the Defense Department and take that massive amount of money and use it to build things we need to try and maintain our lifestyle - or rather, maintain our society. Mars probes, another submarine full of nuclear missles, another thousand jet fighters and bombers, just doesn't cut it at this point - unless our solution to the whole energy problem is to steal from others.

Finite: Your argument made sense in 1968 or 1978 or 1988-actually ever since Ike's speech-just because it would benefit the country is not a reason to expect it to happen soon or ever. IMHO oil depletion will be viewed as a serious threat to be dealt with by the USA government when the negative effects start to hit the top 1% of the population. Oil depletion isn't any different than health care, crime, education, pensions, wages in the USA-if it is not hitting the top 1% expect a lot of talk and zero action.

Well I think the elite will probably see some quick negatives when oil production goes into decline - their stock portfolios going down and their travel choices reduced - less airlines and flights, fewer hotels, resorts, and rental cars. Ironically, I can imagine their first instinct to deal with the problem will be to ask for increased immigration, both legal and illegal, since after all, "that is what makes this country great". Then they will argue about whether to reduce taxes or start some government programs to fix the problem.

In the Great Depression we stopped immigration. I imagine that will happen at some point. Back then we didn't have NASA or a massive DOD budget. It will be interesting (for lack of a better word) to see what becomes of them in an era of oil production decline. I think large cuts in the Defense Budget will be fought tooth and nail. The Republicans in particular will scream to high heaven about every penny. Luckily the Bush Regime will not be there to repeatedly mention al Queda in every DOD budget discussion regarding B2 bombers, nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. But McCain will carry that torch with enthusiasm if he gets the chance.

And how is this electric power going to move trucks, tractors, and trains. I want an idea of what the infrastructure will look like and how is will work for running all of these, not just some photo of an electric tractor, truck, or train to say gee it can be done.

And how is this electric power going to move trucks, tractors, and trains. I want an idea of what the infrastructure will look like and how is will work for running all of these, not just some photo of an electric tractor, truck, or train to say gee it can be done.

From what I can recall, if you want to see electric rail freight infrastructure go to France. They have most of their passenger train service electrified and are in the process of doing that for freight trains as well. I wouldn't imagine that electric freight train infrastructure looks much different that electric passenger train infrastructure. Trucks (at least local) and farm machinery will likely be guaranteed fuel (and quite possibly at a subsidized rate) by the government for as long as it takes to come up with electric versions of them.

One good thing about most of the people in the US living within 100 miles of the coast is that
ship transportation is the most fuel efficient. Shipping along the coasts and down the Mississipi will probably increase just as fast or faster than rail freight traffic.

Most draglines and heavy shovels are becoming electric powered. And there is a move to the same thing for trucks. Locomotives for use in mines have been electric for decades.

Actually, in US underground metal mines, those little electric locomotives were for decades largely replaced with low-slung diesel trucks (so-called trackless mining), as part of the move to use more big machines and fewer well-paid miners. Going back to electric would certainly be possible, however. Less black crud obscuring the geology exposed on mine surfaces would be a side benefit.

just about every thing that moves and uses oil is switching to electric whether it's a totally electric model or a hybrid.

there are hybrid trucks, buses, cars, trains, tractors, garbage trucks and even hybrid mining trucks!

Speaking of infrastructure, it appears that the current rail freight system is not ready to pick up a lot of trucking business:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jiOCeJTUZAKRXozwgHUQvpGGbDwgD90VEUGG0

The saddest part of the article is the claim that it would take 148 billion over 30 years to upgrade the tracks. We spend something like that each year in Iraq. I read about a high speed rail proposal for some city and they ended the article by cautioning that it would cost something like 30 billion, as in, where would that money come from. Imagine if instead of 600 billion to 1 trillion in Iraq we put high speed rail in 30 US metrolitan areas. And no peoplw would have been improverished, no infrastructure destroyed, and no one would have been tortured or killed in the process.

Ever hear of a little thing called the Panama Canal?

Not too much Diesel stuff working there, now was it?

BZ

TNT in the UK just put in an order for 200 7.5 Ton electric delivery trucks frin Smith Electric Vehicles. So has Sainsbury's, a large UK supermarket chain.
They are about 1/3 the size of an 18 wheeler semi and have a range of 100 miles. Cost per mile is 1/4 that of equivalent diesel trucks over the lifetime of the vehicle.

I think these kind of trucks are adequate to support our current infrastructure with some changes to delivery schedule if we built enough of them.

In fact, I believe that with 100 mile range 7.5 ton trucks ALONE we can maintain the current system on life support while we build out the rest of the energy generating infrastructure we need to electrify the rest of the economy. We may not have time to do this without a very painful recession however but better late than never. Five years ago these trucks didn't exist at an acceptabel price point.

Gail's point is the most salient: we must upgrade the grid.

If we do that, there is a ceiling on the price of transport.

There's a 12.5 ton version from the same people too, and it is being exported to America also:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FZX/is_2_74/ai_n24381330
English electric trucks heading to America | Diesel Progress North American Edition | Find Articles at BNET.com

For a commercial enterprise swapping out batteries is also practicable.

Finally it should be borne in mind that at long last battery technology is rapidly improving, and high fuel costs will give very great incentive to introduce better technologies s quickly as possible.

Zinc batteries, for instance, have great potential in a commercial environment.

Agreed.

If there is any need for direct government intervention it is this:
The massive US government fleet of vehicles should be replaced by an electric fleet.
That would do five things:
1. It would create economies of scale for the manufacturers so prices went down for the mass market especially in batteries. This would ultimately feed through to electric automobile manufacturers.
2. It would cut oil imports since the US government would be running on electric transport
3. If would provide impetus to build more renewables
4. It would put a lid on tax rises due to increased fuel costs.
5. During the inevitable recession the nascent electric vehicle industry wouldn't be kaiboshed by bankrupt consumers who couldn't afford to purchase vehicles.

Fortunately, according to figures from Alan Drake, which stupidly I did not bookmark, long distance transmission lines for power are really relatively inexpensive, of the order of $600k per mile, if memory serves.
Even if the cost is substantially higher than that, and even in straightened financial circumstances, this cannot be regarded as a serious obstacle to providing power for EV's, which can also provide a useful function in balancing power on the grid, given the right pricing structure:
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1748-9326/3/1/014003/
An innovation and policy agenda for commercially competitive plug-in hybrid electric vehicles
http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1748-9326/3/1/014003/erl8_1_014003.pdf
erl8_1_014003.pdf

Another possible government initiative would be to provide power points and charging points as they are going to do in Israel and Denmark:
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2008/01/renault-nissan.html#more
The Energy Blog: Renault-Nissan and Project Better Place to Supply Israel with Recharging Grid and Electric Vehicles

Of course it would be immensely more challenging for America than for these small countries, and restricted range for EVs is far more difficult than there.

Some minimal provision largely for commercial vehicles though would greatly reduce the expense and simplify the process of companies switching to electric delivery.

For longer distances the case for rail seems unanswerable.

It surprises me that some very bright people such as many of the motor manufacturers, Honda for instance, still put a lot of emphasis on fuel cell cars, as although some progress seems to have been made recently in reducing costs of the membranes they are still fantastically expensive and hydrogen is difficult to deal with.

I think these kind of trucks are adequate to support our current infrastructure

Off-the-shelf Zebra batteries could be used to power electric semi-tractors to pull the existing fleet of trailers on local runs.

Gail's point is the most salient: we must upgrade the grid.

The grid is sized for peak load, and has more than adequate capacity to charge a large fleet of vehicles at night; the biggest change is in generation, shifting from peaking plants to base load.  We mostly need grid upgrades to support generation like wind farms.

Get rid of NASA, get rid of most of the Defense Department and take that massive amount of money and use it to build things we need to try and maintain our lifestyle - or rather, maintain our society.

Ok. Who puts up GPS and Weather satellites?

New Mexico has three coal-fired electric generation plants.

Escalante, San Juan, and Four Corners.

Most New Mexico electrical power coal apparently is rated at about 9,000 BTU per pound.

Here's some pics.

Let's see what pnm does?

No email response from former FBI agent Wayne Gilbert yet.

Let's see what the feds do.

According to the EIA website, as of January 1, 2007 the Estimated Recoverable Reserves for the US amounted to 267 billion tons. Since production for 2006 was 1,162,750 tons, that would indicate an R/P ratio of about 230/1.

Should that read 1,162,750,000 tons?

From the coverage we get of the US Presidential race I believe each candidate is talking about cap-and-trade with some vagaries on the details. Don't hold your breath since Australia voted for a 'climate' candidate who has done nothing. We are supposed to get carbon emissions trading in 2010 but all the signs point to the new government losing their nerve or screwing it up.

Apart from big price increases for coal and supply bottlenecks I'm noticing that much of coal growth is kept under the radar. Not so much coal-to-liquids or 'capture-ready' gasification plant but exports and keeping old coal burning plant from overdue retirement. If the US exports coal to China it will earn peanuts and prolong the offshoring of manufacturing jobs. There will also be climate blowback. I predict
1) the next US President will talk about carbon caps but not actually do anything
2) the US will 'sleep with the enemy' by selling them relatively cheap coal.

If the US exports coal to China it will earn peanuts and prolong the offshoring of manufacturing jobs. There will also be climate blowback.

When you hear about and see pictures of how bad the air pollution is in China from coal burning, it seems incredible that they would increase it, but they are just as into "growth is good" as the capitalist countries. I am hoping that Peak Oil and Peak Coal will bring jobs back from China. But working against that is the fact that ship transportation is the cheapest so the shipping cost from China to California is probably less than from Kansas to California.


I predict
1) the next US President will talk about carbon caps but not actually do anything
2) the US will 'sleep with the enemy' by selling them relatively cheap coal.

If McCain is the President I don't think there will even be talk of carbon caps.

Every US president since US oil production began declining has read speeches that mentioned "reducing our dependence on foreign oil". And yet the only thing you could point to that was ever done is subsidize ethanol. And I have a feeling that is occuring more from corn producer/ethanol producer lobbying than from a desire to replace oil.

There will also be climate blowback. I predict.....

......not a big bang climate change event? We are already for decades in CO2 overshoot mode. That cannot end well. We are undoing in 150 years nature's CO2 geo-sequestration which cooled the climate over hundreds of millions of years until we hit a level where the orbital changes started to play a role and produced glacial and interglacial periods, the last of which was rather stable and allowed civilization to establish itself. All this is in danger now.

Richard Heinberg needs to get his facts straight. He falsely believes that hydrocarbon bonds break apart below 15,000 feet.

Look carbon bonds break under certain conditions. Refineries use this for hydrocracking. The conditions are not all that harsh to break down hydrocarbons. It has nothing to do with depth except that on average at that depth conditions are such that hydrocarbons break down. You can pour a 55 gallon drum into a volcano and achieve the same result at a much shallower depth.

This is basic chemistry and has nothing to do with peak oil.

The temperature of the crust varies widely some places you may have conditions where oil is viable down to 30,000 feet or even 50,000.

However if your anti-peak oil I suggest you take a look at coal deposits and methane hydrates. We still trillions of barrels of oil equivelents of reduced carbon deposits far more accessible then what your proposing.
The North Sea has huge offshore coal seams for example. Heck even regular stranded Natural Gas reserves are large.

Theoretically we have 100's if not thousands of years of potential replacements for the oil we use today.

You don't have to use abiotic oil as a argument. The problem is to utilize these resource won't be cheap and in most cases the EROEI is close to 1:1 so YMMV.

So I can listen to Richard Heinberg - or I can listen to you.

What actual data do YOU have to prove that YOUR word is worth listening to?

[Richard Heinberg] falsely believes that hydrocarbon bonds break apart below 15,000 feet.

Thank you for our daily example of cluelessness.

Hydrocarbon bonds break apart above a certain temperature.  Temperatures at depths below 15,000 feet are usually too high for the existence of long-chain alkanes.  This is the meaning you either failed to get via someone's inaccurate account of Heinberg's thesis, or you are simply not equipped to understand.

Hydrocarbon bonds do not break apart above 275 degrees F as claimed by Heinberg. Carioca has 33 billion barrels trapped by 500 degree heat.

It seems to me that one response to this that all could support would be to end export of any coal from federal land or which requires a federal permit to mine. It seems to me that coal mining always involves fatalities (10 so far this year: http://www.msha.gov/FATALS/FABC2008.asp ) and it just does not make sense to export coal when it costs us so much to mine it.

Chris

Fantastic post! Thank you very much for this.