Not a new idea, of course.

In September 2001 the City of Calgary announced its decision to use commercial wind energy as the primary source of the C-train's electricity. The program is called "Ride the Wind" because people using the C-Train would actually be traveling with the help of energy captured from the wind.

Before the switch to wind power, the C-Train's energy supply accounted for about 20,000 tonnes of greenhouse gases and other air pollution every year, less than 1/10 of the pollution that would have resulted if all C-Train passengers had driven in their own cars. Under the Ride the Wind program, these emissions are reduced to practically zero. The reduction in greenhouse gas emissions resulting from this change is like taking another 4,000 cars off the road for a year. This makes the C-train one of the most environmentally friendly forms of transportation you can use.

http://www.re-energy.ca/ridethewind/backgrounder.shtml

Great idea to electrify transport and this bus idea makes a whole lot of sense on a circular and regular route.

Electricity however is ubiquitous. It doesn't matter if it is produced by coal, solar wind or hydro, what comes out of the generator or inverter is exactly the same: Electrons moving in AC sine wave form.

This means that the bus can be charged up from anywhere really and just needs to access the electricity grid. The Solar panels really don't run the bus, they are just ofsetting the power drawn down by the bus when it plugs in.

This is important to understand when it comes to siting wind or solar panels. They should be placed in the area where they will operate most efficiently. Solar would be very inefficent on the Gold Coast (I jsut spent two weeks there in November and most days were overcast).I don't know about the wind profile but I imagine that the top of the Gold Coast Escarpment would be the best place on the coast but may be not the best place in QLD. I also think that NIMBY would stop a wind farm pretty quickly on the escarpment.

The point is that any renewables will generate electricity and this energy must be used instantly or stored either in batteries, reverse hydro, compressed gas or even chemical electrolysis.

The problem with renewables is thay are sporadic and unreliable. Wind and solar cannot provide baseload yet so we are left with "averaging out" the contribution these inputs make vis-a-vis the baseload coal stations. But that implies that the coal fired station is indespensible which should make us stop and think about the wisdom of adding a new technolgy when it does not repalce the old one and only serves to entrench the perception of "clean" electricity when the truth is somewhat different.

It might be OK to run one bus with an acre of solar panels but it is relly just a gimmick unless it can be shown that it can be scaled up and run a whole cities buses this way.

The only way I could see this operationally practical is to have standby batteries being charged and quick changeovers of battery cells for example when the bus stops to take passengers (think grand -prix type tyre swap outs). This would require at least two sets of batteris per bus and probably more. It really depends on if the batteries can be charged at the same rate as they are being discharged in the buses.

I suspect probably not, which means that an even larger solar array charging larger banks of batteris would be required. An assembly line of batteries at various charge stages would need to be built big enough to ensure 100% availability when each bus demanded a top up. The efficiency of this type of arrangement would be extremely low and this would make it very expensive.

I am also very sceptical of the zero emissions argument about solar and wind. Photo voltaics especially have very intricate manufacturing processes which use enormous energy inputs, and wind turbines are built from steel towers and copper generators.

The materials in these renewable energy harvesters have already created huge amounts of GHG before they generate one watt of power. We must take into account the manufacturing cost in energy terms and balance that out against the energy that will be harvested.

We also have to ask how the net energy, after the payback of manufactuing energy, will be used? I don't really know but my guess is that by the time you reach the profit point, electricity demand will have grown to the point that both the CFE and the RE will be used to the max and not one tonne of GHG will be saved. The only thing RE's might do is slow the growth of CFE generated GHG.

What about the oil, coal, and natural gas used to manufacture and maintain all of this. No one has calculated this and it is enormous in energy used and emissions.

Aren't Perth's buses (at least the inner city ones) gas powered ? That was the direction they had headed last time I looked.

Driving back up the coast (to Perth) today, I see that Alannah MacTiernan's Mandurah train line has opened at last...

Adelaide will build a nuclear plant if worst comes to worst for them - but hopefully they realise they have as much renewable energy that they could ever want within the state already...

If we can crack the "Hyper-Capacitor" it would be possible to top-up/recharge these trolley buses during the 30 seconds or so they stop to pick up. That way you wouldn't need to lay any exposed power lines -just have a safely shielded charging point at every stop with smaller buried cables linking them... (Remember after PO steel, etc. is going to get expensive to manufacture so you need to look at 'least cost per mile').

I think the grid will be the last part of civilisation to go, literally.

Nick.

No Need To lay tracks. I was born and lived in Sao Paulo Brazil where they had a very good system of electric buses that ran off the grid and they had regular air filled tires, nicer softer ride than steel on steel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUceP48F-so

Agree, agree, agree, but I still think rails are more efficient than tyres, and the latest trams are very smooth, but the difference is so marginal we should be more concerned with efficiency than comfort.

There are fantasies off both the front and the backsides of 'Reality', Clif. The Angels are up ahead Beckoning, while the Demons are grabbing at our heels.

Antidoomer pushes those 'Vaporware' links with evangelical zeal, and you tell us EVERYTHING hangs on an Oil-suspension system, and is not worth investing our time and thought into..

The question for me is what portion of our machining, our forging, our metallurgy, our electronics design, ceramics, plastics, chemistry, printing, telephony and radio, medicine (and stepping over the countless others..) in short, which of our fundamental technologies are simply and unequivocally dependent upon an Oil-rich infrastructure, and which are sitting with us on the Oil-barge merely because that is where EVERYTHING is, and that they can come along with us and be part of our lives as that tide rolls out?

The copper, aluminum and steel will still be all around us. We'll have decades of retired electronics to feed back into that materials-loop. Our ability to work it may be massively reduced, but it won't be gone, and we'll long-since have started realizing that what we build with it had better last this time, unlike the 'disposable culture' that appropriately disposed of itself. Reminds me of the Pink Panther cartoon where the vacuum cleaner sucks itself into oblivion.

Good to see you keeping up the fight!
"Never let go.."
-Rose 'Titanic'

Merry Christmas!
Bob

Beggar;
I don't have much cash for Solar at this point, but every time I get a birthday check or equivalent drops of gravy, it goes to the PV Pot. I try to buy for under $5/watt.

I'm also building a Vertical Windmill for the peak of my roof. Virtually all recycled parts, 90vdc motor from a 'Freecycled' treadmill, Wheel ends from a 36" cablespool in a construction dumpster last month, big bearings from American Science and Surplus for pretty cheap.. I just want to have the grim satisfaction of taking that bitter wind that is chilling my house and using it inside for light, heat, tools, etc..

So there are SOME cheaper sources of Electr that could be drizzling some power into your batteries, and they're all additive! Shouldn't be much challenge for a Carpenter/Handyman..

Great to hear your little bus is working out!

Bob

Yeah and there will be no service on overcast days. "Sorry guys, you have to walk the last couple of miles, 'cause it rained this morning."

Running anything solely on solar or wind power is yet a mere fiction. We obviously wont get away from it soon.

The A123's Li-Ion phosphate appeared to be the most commercially viable
springboarding from the Dewalt and black & decker drills to EV's.
electric vehicals
A123 cells were and may still be made off shore.
Most of the powder battery technologies have OSHA safety issues re:
breathing the powder and contact with the skin which they can't afford to
meet in the US so that had to outsource to China for cost issues.
Isn't it imparative for our national energy security that we start making our batteries in the United States ?
"Tindo" has an operational range of 200 kilometres between charges under typical urban conditions, and as it doesn't have a combustion engine, it operates quietly and effectively with zero tail pipe emissions.

It uses 11 Swiss-made Zebra sodieum/nickel batteries, giving the bus unprecedented energy storage and operational range.

And the batteries are not affected by external temperatures.
These batteries need to be preheated before being charged ? Liquid salt.
Chicago I was told by cta that the hybrid bus trials are still ongoing. this is beweeen Allison and ISE thundervolt ISE uses maxwell capacitors, When the mayor had the olympic commitee on a tour their hybrid bus broke down. ISE has recently made a hybrid bus with two turbines.
from green chip review
That's why I'm pleased to announce Daimler Buses North America has just received orders for 1,052 Orion VII Next Generation diesel-electric series hybrid transit buses.
Using BAE System's HybriDrive -
l an in-line six, 5.9 liter Cummins diesel that produces 260 hp
l a 120 kw generator
l a 32 kWh battery pack from A123Systems
l and a 250 hp traction motor that pushes out an incredible 2,100 1b-ft of continuous torque with a 2,700 lb-ft peak - these Orion VII buses reduce emissions considerably.
Using this system, the city operators can expect 90% less particulate matter, 40% less NOx and 30% fewer greenhouse gases.
Of those 1,052 buses, 850 are going to New York by 2010 and the remaining 202 will be sold to the City of Ottawa.
Hybrid Bus Revolution
As we've discussed before, hybrid buses are really starting to take off. From municipalities across the country to major delivery companies like UPS and FedEx, diesel/electric hybrids have significant benefits over other "green" buses, like compressed natural gas.
By using proven diesel powerplants, such as the Cummins found in the Orion VII, normal maintenance procedures can be sustained and fleet mechanics will keep their jobs.
Not to mention, taking the strain off of the engine and eliminating the transmission, the hearty electric motors take the brunt of the work and need next to no maintenance.