DrumBeat: January 10, 2007

Venezuela's Chavez seeks control of gas projects

CARACAS - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Wednesday recommended the state take control of natural gas projects as part of his intensified program of nationalization.

Venezuelan law currently allows foreign firms to own gas projects in the Caribbean state but Chavez proposed a legislative change.

Belarus climbs down, Russian oil may flow soon

MOSCOW/MINSK - Russia and Belarus neared a deal on Wednesday to resume oil supplies via a key export pipeline, as Minsk claimed a compromise with Moscow and European customers said crude could start flowing within hours.

...Belarussian Prime Minister Sergei Sidorsky said Minsk will revoke an oil transit duty it imposed last week, meeting Russia's main demand for ending a bitter trade dispute.


2006 was warmest on record for U.S.

Preliminary data from the National Climatic Data Center listed the average temperature for the 48 contiguous states last year as 55 degrees Fahrenheit.

That's 2.2 degrees warmer than average and 0.07 degree warmer than 1998, the previous warmest year on record.

Worldwide, the agency said, it was the sixth warmest year on record.


IEA: Venezuela's oil nationalization could crimp output

Venezuela's plan to nationalize four multibillion-dollar crude oil projects could impede investment in the OPEC member nation and hinder its ability to boost production, the chief economist of the International Energy Agency said Wednesday.


How richest fuel global warming - but poorest suffer most from it

By the end of tomorrow the average Briton will have caused as much global warning as the typical Kenyan will over the whole of this year, according to a report.

The findings highlight the glaring imbalance between the rich countries that produce most of the pollution and the poor countries that suffer the consequences in the forms of drought, floods, starvation and disease.


Chrysler questions climate change

Chrysler's chief economist Van Jolissaint has launched a fierce attack on "quasi-hysterical Europeans" and their "Chicken Little" attitudes to global warming.


The EU wants to build an energy strategy in the Caspian region

Energy security has come back again to the forefront of the European Union's international political agenda. The EU is trying to deepen its energy relations with the former Soviet republics in the Caspian region through the so called “Baku Initiative”, aimed at creating a Black Sea/Caspian regional energy community shaped on Brussels' energy rules. Even though it will not alter the current pattern of energy trade in the Eurasian space, it will help in the long run to build more market-friendly energy relation between the EU and Caspian energy producers.


Bulgaria's Cut Export Triggers Energy Crisis in Albania

The Albanian power corporation announced it is urgently looking to increase imports of electricity to avoid a shutdown of its main hydropower stations.

The country is gasping to meet energy demands suffering from lack of rain and buing no more electricity from Bulgaria after the closure of nukes 3 and 4.


China misses efficiency, pollution goals in "grim" 2006

BEIJING - China last year missed its goals of making a 4 percent cut in the amount of energy it uses to generate each dollar of national income and of reducing emissions of major pollutants, a top official said on Wednesday. The failure to curb the country's appetite for energy will be a blow to top officials, who backed the challenging goal with a raft of new policies including tying civil servants' career prospects to their energy saving achievements.

"2006 has been the most grim year for China's environmental situation," vice minister Pan Yue was quoted saying on the Web site of the State Environmental Protection Administration.


China braces for rising gas prices

BEIJING - When Belarus reluctantly accepted a sharp rise in the price of Russian gas in the dying minutes of 2006, China started preparing for higher natural-gas prices in the middle and long terms.


Critics Say New EU Energy Policy Lacks Bite

BRUSSELS - The European Commission launches an overhaul of EU environment and energy policy on Wednesday with new proposals that critics already say are too weak to fight climate change and secure future energy supplies.


9 South Korean workers kidnapped in Nigeria

PORT HARCOURT, Nigeria - Gunmen stormed a compound housing expatriate pipeline workers in the oil-rich southern region Wednesday, kidnapping nine South Koreans and a Nigerian, officials said.

Dozens of soldiers and security guards at the complex failed to foil the latest in a series of kidnappings in the area, said Ekiyor Wilson, a local government spokesman.


Changes Made to Status of Two OCS Areas; Royalty Rate Increases

Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne announced that President George W. Bush has modified the leasing status of two areas in the Outer Continental Shelf in response to Congressional action and the requests of state leaders. In addition, Kempthorne announced that he has increased the royalty rate for most new offshore deepwater federal oil and gas leases to 16.7 percent (1/6th).


Japan and U.S. to cooperate on civil nuclear energy

WASHINGTON: Japan said Tuesday it was considering providing financing for the construction of new U.S. civilian nuclear plants as part of a larger U.S.-Japanese energy cooperation effort.


Russia Becoming 'Frighteningly Arrogant' Over Oil

The latest energy spat between Russia and one of its former Soviet neighbors has cut off oil supplies to western Europe and led to fresh concerns over the west's dependence on Russian oil. It highlights how ruthless and arrogant Russia has become with its energy policy, and forces Europe to step up its search for alternative supplies, say German media commentators.


EU: Days of secure, cheap energy over

BRUSSELS, Belgium - Energy-dependent Europe is moving to wean itself off oil imports and slash the carbon emissions blamed for global warming.

With world demand for limited stocks of oil and gas surging, top EU officials have embraced a new energy strategy that emphasizes diverse and renewable sources of fuel. The plan is due out Wednesday.


Drilling for Deals in the Oil Patch

As oil prices have retreated from record levels, companies in the red hot energy industry are getting cheaper and consolidation activity is sizzling. Two more deals hit the news on Jan. 8.


Deepwater oil drilling is not for faint-hearted

As easier-to-reach oil deposits run dry, energy companies are venturing farther out into the frontier for new reserves to quench the growing thirst for oil.

The U.S. Minerals Management Service defines deepwater as below 1,000 feet, a feat first achieved in the 1970s. But improving technology for exploration and production is bringing oil from much deeper water within reach.

The new technology could expand deepwater production around the globe.


Is Peak Oil Already Here?


Nigeria: '50 Percent of Nigerians Use Wood for Energy'

About 50 percent of Nigerians are using wood to generate energy for household activities, the Council for Renewable Energy in Nigeria has said. This constitutes a health hazards particularly to women and children the council said.


Bush lifts Alaska oil, gas drilling ban

WASHINGTON - President Bush lifted a ban Tuesday on oil and gas drilling in Alaska's Bristol Bay, an area known for its endangered whales and the world's largest run of sockeye salmon.

The action clears the way for the Interior Department to open 5.6 million acres of the fish-rich waters northwest of the Alaska Peninsula as part of its next five-year leasing plan.


How low can oil prices go from here?: Keep an eye on OPEC, hedge funds, the global economy and the weather

Call it the energy dividend. After 2006 tore a big hole in consumer’s wallets and took a bite out businesses' bottom lines, a recent sharp reversal in prices may help make up for some of that pain.


China’s auto industry takes off

BEIJING - Sha Heping was a proud husband on New Year’s Eve as he put down the deposit for a $15,000 subcompact with the optional sunroof, a gift for his wife who used to commute to work by bicycle every day, even in biting winter cold.

With savings from over 20 years of service as a Beijing government functionary, Sha is the latest statistic underpinning the world’s hottest market.


Next Schwarzenegger target: fuel emissions

SACRAMENTO — Escalating California's battle against global warming, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is expected to announce today that he will order a 10% cut in motor vehicle emissions of greenhouse gases, mainly carbon dioxide.

Under the proposal, petroleum refiners and gasoline sellers would be ordered to reduce the carbon content of their fuels over the next 13 years.


Searching for the Future

Burtynsky is now beginning to tackle a subject larger than China. “I’ve been interested in trying to photograph things that may exist today that will not exist tomorrow,” he says. He’s set out to document the idea of peak oil and its impact on society. “I’m looking at the industry and the oil fields and the last great sources of oil on the planet.”


Petrobras: Won't Change Invest Plans Amid Venezuela News

Brazilian oil giant Petroleo Brasileiro (PBR), or Petrobras, will not change its investment plans in Latin America after Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez announced he will nationalize key industries, including the energy sector, Petrobras Chief Executive Sergio Gabrielli said Tuesday.

"(This announcement) should not be a surprise to anybody ... He has been moving towards announcing this for some time," Gabrielli declared at an airport in Rio de Janeiro.


WWW or Whining, Waxing and Waning

“The richest 2% of the world’s adult population own more than 50% of the global assets while the poorest 50% own only 1%.” — UN Assets Report

This reality explains much about the inability of the left of the developed world to come to terms with the real nature of capitalism, why it takes a Subcomandante or a Hugo Chavez, or indeed a Fidel Castro to remind us. Thus, whilst we get all worked up over ‘peak oil’, ‘resource wars’ and other red herrings, the real issue is the periodic crisis of over-production! Crises now complicated by the realisation that over-production has now resulted in the disaster of climate change to add to our woes. And as if to reinforce Marx’s brilliant insights, not to mention adding insult to injury, we in the developed world are now being pressured to reduce our consumption in the name of slowing down global warming!

It might amuse car-guys to know that Malcolm Bricklin (Wikipedia is kind of harsh) is still out there, and planning a Chinese-built plug-in hybrid.

Here's a good one: Detroit Automakers Want Half Billion For Battery Research

Oh yeah, CAFE, MPG requirements, etc. interfere with a "free market" ... but when you want $500,000,000 where do you go?

Half a billion is chump change. The Fed writes a check on thin air to buy more U.S. Govt. debt, and there the money is--helps to stimulate the economy, don't 'cha know;-)

I'm not actually opposed to basic research into battery technologies (at all!), but the thing I'd keep an eye on (if I had any power in this) was where "intellectual property rights" would reside. The killer these days is when public funds advance science, and then hand off ownership to a corporate entity. We, the little people, pay more than once.

All 'alternative' energy forms, just like the conventional ones, depend on public funds. That's where the money is. You can make a list and see how true that is, from tar sands to nuclear to clean coal to ethanol, it applies to every single case.

And those are direct forms of subsidy (let's count tax credits among them). It doesn't include the fact that extracting finite resources should, but doesn't, show up in the ledgers, and under normal accounting rules would require that a form of compensation be paid.

The result is a hugely distorted, entirely unrealistic, far too low, picture of the true price we pay for energy. Which can have only one effect: more consumption. Without that distortion, the price of gas would double or even triple, which in turn would lead to significant changes in the workings of society. These changes would be beneficial to all parties, except for energy producers.

The one exception was supposed to be new nuclear plants in the UK, where the government shouted out loud that all investment had to be private. There is a deep silence on that file by now. No surprise.

so why do nuclear (high capital-long life technologically intense large scale little greenhouse emission) plants
get the most scrutiny and harshness?

Doesn't it seem backwards? Government investment is useful when the quantity needed and timescale needed is deeper and longer than typical, and where the benefits are diffuse.

so why do nuclear (high capital-long life technologically intense large scale little greenhouse emission) plants
get the most scrutiny and harshness?

Says who?

Isn't it truw that the more public money you need, the worse your economics are, perhaps?

maybe chernobyl et three mile island ?

It's about Liability. If an accident occurs, who pays the claims? Gov't as self-insurers or the industry? If the industry, it exposes itself to bankrupty. Imagine the claim amount. Thus govt's usually cover the tab.

"All 'alternative' energy forms, just like the conventional ones, depend on public funds. "

This is just wrong. I have built several passive solar houses, none of which received any public funds. The house I currently live in was a passive solar remodel, that has been functioning fine on less than 30% of the heating energy that my neighbors use for 15 years.
Examples of subsidy-free alternative energy abound. Throughout the off-grid regions of the world (Nepal, Latin America) I have seen many PV systems that were purchased with no government subsidy (mostly low-tech Chinese made 1 panel, 1 battery, 1 flourescent light systems).

tommyvee.

passive solar is not an energy form

Of course it is. It is Solar Energy, with the most direct and material-saving way for homebuilders to heat. Just because you don't put it in a pipe, battery or a tank doesn't mean that it is not DIRECTLY doing what everyone else does with 'Ancient Sunlight', Oil, Gas, Wood, Coal, Nuclear (Ancient 'Starstuff'?)

But it is this very illusion that energy has to seem like 'stuff' or be run with some kind of machine, or be a quantifiable market item- if even just the charge on a battery.. to be considered energy at its most essential, which is to say, energy being used for what we need. Most importantly, Tommy's houses are NOT having to burn nearly as much of the other stuff.. so it is 'dirty-energy spared'. (And I'm not put off by the arguments of how 'someone else' is just going to use it then. It's not a cause/effect relationship)

Bob

Good for you. Any investment strategy that has to do with energy, whether personal or public, should begin with how now to need the energy in the first place. This is typically where the greatest returns lie. This country, while supposedly finally waking up, is mostly about supply and fanciful investments in magical potions like ethanol and hydogen. While we pursue the impossible, there is all that cheap insulation out there just waiting for the next home or the next retrofit.

Another one of your moronic economic statements. The Fed is not the Treasury. It is independent. And Washington must sell instruments to acquire funds. And they don't miss their payments. Don't be such a fool when folks expect better from u.

If that's chump change the Treasury can send me a check anytime, I'll recommend another for DS and one for TOD. Right after mine clears.

Roger that. You've gotten kinda anti-social real recent. People follow you on a daily basis. Don't dis them. You wanna sleep that's cool just tell someone so we can send out sentries. YOur six oclock.

You think this is funny.

So do I. I just can't figure how to mix how big this girl's boobs are with how cool my story line is. Serious ethical problems.

Thing is. I always have stuck by Jack and Jack by me. I can't stop laughing. Jack always said that the Iranian oil bourse was shit. He was totally right. Who is the only one that ever backed him 100%. Jack knows. I'll walk this time. I'll do it. I'll make the scene. Around 2 o'clock. Seeya soon.

I heard Ed Burtynsky speak two summers ago at a conference in Toronto, and recently saw "Manufactured Landscapes". Both the movie and Ed's work drive home a sense of the scale of the human endeavour, and make you ask yourself some serious questions about population, consumerism, exponential growth and sustainability. I'll never look at a Chinese-made plastic snow shovel the same way again.

For me, one of the most impressive scenes in the movie was his visit to a Chinese coal yard. Mile after mile after mile of black mountains. Then we read that China's projected coal consumption for this year is 2.5 gigatonnes. And that they missed lat year's pollution and energy intensity reduction targets by a mile. If I wasn't such a natural optimist news like that might depress me a bit.

One problem with doing something to ease additional global warming is if rich countries benefit from it.

There is a strong opinion in tiny (9million pop) Sweden that we should do what we can to slow down global warming. But there is a fair chance that GW overall would make life more comfortable here and why should we then use massive ammounts of investments to do our part in slowing down GW?

Its a larger problem for the hurting regions if GW is beneficial to Russia, they are large enough to realy matter.

I'm on thin ice here (quite literally this year) but as I understand it a key downside to global warming is as follows:

Western Europe enjoys moderate winters due to a gulf stream conveyor belt. That is, warm water from the north american gulf circulates across the Atlantic up past England, across to Greenland and then sinks to the bottom to return to the gulf.

Global warming is thought to be able to stop the conveyor belt. If this happens, Western Europe will have much colder winters.

I'm afraid Canadians share a similar attitude. Here in Ottawa we have only half an inch of snow on the ground, which we got yesterday. There is rain in the forecast. People are enjoying the mild weather and I don't mind not having to clear the driveway.

On the other hand, the Rideau Canal Skateway (listed in the Guiness Book of World Records as the largest skating rink in the world) will not open this year. When I looked last week portions still had not frozen while 18" of ice are needed to allow the grooming trucks onto the ice.

These minor benefits and irritants aside, I don't know whether rich countries will benefit from Sweden doing its part or not. I do know that poor southern hemisphere coutries will greatly appreciate your efforts.

My teenage son asked me recently about global warming. He said he would "get involved," but he didn't think he would ever be the Ghandi of global warming so what was the point. I told him that we already have a Ghandi of global warming and his message is "Turn out the light when you leave the room."

It isn't what the messenger does about global warming, it is what we each individually do about it.

John,
First, of all, thanks for being syntactically correct about the shutting down of the 'conveyor belt.' So many people talk about the Gulf Stream shutting down and this is just plain ignorant. The Gulf Stream will not shut down any more than any other major ocean current will shut down.

Second, every so often I toss out this bit of contrarian research for comment. I don't know how robust it is or if there have been follow up studies, but it has the imprimatur of Lamont-Doherty which is quite respectable in the Earth-Sciences and climate change area.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-01/teia-crr012203.php

Thank you for pointing me to that report. It helps to illustrate that there is so much we don't know for sure. It sure makes one leary of emphatic proclamations.

Yesterday I linked to an article by Douglas Gnazzo that saw a sinister side to the Club of Rome (CoR) steady-state population and capital ideals.

What I go out of it though was the thought that there really is no other solution than what the CoR proposes, is there? We have to scale down our population and impose rules on population and capital growth to ensure a steady state sustainable society.

It is often said that humans lived in a sustainable state prior to employing agriculture. The question to me then is, do we know that we can run a sustainable society at some level of "industrialization" higher than that of the HunterGatherers?

Imagine we start over on some unspoilt hypothetical part of the earth, with abundant resources, and we were given the challenge of building a society to last 100,000 years. How would you do it? What technologies would you initially use? What political system? What philosophy would you use to guide such a society through such a long time?

I am not sure that we can do it. Even starting from scratch, with the best intentions and the best of everything humans have learnt over the last 10,000 years, I am doubtful that we can do it.

What do you think?

I think Diamond's Collapse has the answer. It's possible, but only under certain conditions.

1) A small society, where everyone knows everyone, and everyone feels they have a "stake" in sustainability. "Our" water, "our" beach, "our" forest, etc. Once it's not "ours" but "his" or "theirs," it's over. Such a society needs to be isolated from possible conquerers; I suspect that's why Diamond's examples of successful sustainable societies were island-based.

2) A large society with strong central control. Perhaps with hereditary rulers (so the king has incentive to manage the country well, for his heirs to inherit).

All in all, I'm pretty doubtful, too. I suspect that if we do achieve sustainability, it's going to be at great cost to individual rights.

But of course Diamond himself has said recently:

I am cautiously optimistic about the state of the world, because: 1. Big businesses sometimes conclude that what is good for the long-term future of humanity is also good for their bottom line (cf. Wal-Mart's recent decision to shift their seafood purchases entirely to certified sustainable fisheries within the next three to five years). 2. Voters in democracy sometimes make good choices and avoid bad choices (cf. some recent elections in a major First World country).

In answer to the question above, I think it is actually unknowable. Some will work back-of-the-envelope calculations for footprints possible, etc., but it really takes too many assumptions, and too many rough guesses for the basic numbers involved.

I think we have to deal with the problems and opportunities we have around us today. Some of that is pretty simple ... if the oceans are in trouble, stop washing your car with soap (around here "drains lead to ocean"), stop eating so many fish (especially middle-class luxury fish), and so on.

There are plenty concrete things to deal with, I think.

Don't you think the question was a little rigged? They asked him, not "Are you optimistic?" but "What are you optimistic about?"

He didn't have to say he was optimistic about "the state of the world," he could have chosen something else ;-)

(like the progress he's made on his bunker)

That would be just plain silly. What is he supposed to reply? "I'm optimistic about the Los Angeles Angels' chances of winning the World Series next season, as long as they don't trade Santana"? They were expecting an answer about the state of the world, or they wouldn't have asked him.

Come on, who's being silly?

You don't think a man as literate as Diamond could turn that question to say what he wanted?

Get real, or for amusement, picture how Kunstler would have taken that question and run with it.

No, if Diamond had wanted to express pessimism, I'm am confident that he had the tools to do so.

I think he did express pessimism, with the words "Cautiously optimistic."

In any case, Diamond's book expresses optimism, too. At least, cautious optimism. But I kind of think it has to. We Americans expect a happy ending.

Leanan, you are amazing.

Let's all focus on the "cautious" part guys, and affirm our doom.

Diamond makes one statement and you distort this to imply that Diamond must think everything will be ok so anyone who has read Diamond should accept this too? That is what you are implying, though you would never say that clearly since twisting words is your primary mode of operation and you expend great effort to never let yourself be clearly nailed to a specific position.

One can only boggle at the sheer linguistic contortion of your posts.

If Diamond had been another author talking about future growth and technological advance, and had made a single statement hinting at doom, and one of the doomers had run with it, you (of all the sophists here certainly YOU) would have skewered any such poster.

Why don't you drop the word games, odograph? Or are you going to play XOM style disinformation specialist endlessly by dragging your one selected Diamond quote up in every thread that mentions Diamond by name?

Diamond is a mainstream author. He has to show clean hands, be ‘balanced’, not offend or frighten. Support the status quo. The past, of course, is fair game. But we are better than that now, aren’t we? Intellectually, democratically, technologically, spiritually, scientifically, etc. etc.

Yergin’s masterful book is another example. When the history becomes contemporary, it is hands off and sugar water.

Argh!

Noisette,
If you are not frightened after reading Jared Diamond's "Collapse," may I respectfully suggest you read it again--including the material at the back of the book.

To me the book was frightening, because it made abundantly clear that our society is making many of the same mistakes as those that failed in the past. When I looked for examples of how our society is adopting tactics and adapting to environmental changes such as those Diomond lists as choosing to avoid collapse, I looked in vain.

I've talked with various authors who have written books in which they discuss the future, most notably the economist Robert Heilbroner. I asked him some years ago why in his more recent books he was less gloomy than in his earlier ones. Immediately the brow furrowed, and he tried to explain how he thought that he owed it to his readers to offer some hope. Well, his books were great commercial successes, and had he laid on the undiluted gloom and doom I doubt if they would have been published.

Heilbroner is an extremely honest man, but there are limits set by publishers as to what you say and how you say it.

BTW, while I am thinking of it, I recommend all of Heilbroner's books, especially, "The Human Prospect" and also "The Worldly Philosophers," which is an upbeat book about the history of thought in economics.

I agree, Don. Heilbroner is tops. I regularly use sections from his "Marxism, for and against" in my social theory and political economy seminars. Incisive, balanced and well written. I recommend this particularly in light of the last entry on Leanan's Drumbeat articles today "Whining, Waxing and Waning".

You guys are too sad. English is an expressive language, and Diamond is a wordsmith in that expressive language. I see the words "cautiously optimistic" and take them exactly for the conventional English meaning they convey, no more no less. I look for no "secret" meanings. Find a dictionary that describes "cautiously optimistic" and I'll be on board.

On the other hand this line looks like something that should be in a texbook:

I think he did express pessimism, with the words "Cautiously optimistic."

I think, seriously, you need to slow down and [think] of the way values are created and shared in a sub-culture, and how those values might split from mainstream society. They become at once what creates a difference, and at the same time reinforces an identity. Is TOD a place where "Cautiously optimistic" really means "pessimistic?"

I'd use caution, because redefinition of language is often, actually, a cult practice.

Anyway, if you (and certainly not me) think there is a hidden message, why don't your write Diamond and ask him? Use exactly the words used here. Ask him if "the question was a little rigged?" and ask him if because of that, "he did express pessimism" in a cryptic way.

(to say that I am playing word games ... so freaking sad, but in the right sub-culture it might fly.)

It is akin to 'damning with faint praise.'

I'd agree with that one, and it certainly does convey that work is not done.

(BTW, I was laughing out loud at my own "bunker" joke ... sorry it didn't translate)

I find it amazing that anyone can look at the recent Mal*Wart moves toward using CF lights and 'organic' foods as some sign that the paradigm is changing. My worst-case metaphor for this would be something along the lines of the Nazis deciding to use bio-degradable gas in their gas chambers in the interest of eco-friendliness.

The basic paradigm of Mal*Wart is to exploit resources, both material and human, to the max and make their profit-making system as efficient as possible. The only reason I see for these moves is one of public-relations. If it turns out that the changes will affect the bottom line in a negative way, out they will go. Mal*Wart epitomizes much of what is bad about the bad side of so-called 'free market' capitalism (yes, it does have good sides, but the balance is now way out of whack).

I make this rant fully aware that my own paycheck is indirectly dependent on the existence of Mal*Wart. (sorry for the dyslexia ;)

What about Walmart's recent solar RFP?

Wal-Mart is keeping the details of the proposal under wraps as the process is still ongoing.

However, one person who saw the proposal said that if completed, it could amount to a significantly large installation--on the order of 100 megawatts of power over the next five years.

"To put that into perspective, the solar system currently being installed at Google headquarters in California--the largest single corporate solar installation in history--is 1.6 MW, about 1/60th the size," wrote Joel Makower, a clean-technology consultant who saw the proposal but is not bidding on it.

Discalaimer: I do not shop at Wal Mart so don't see this as some kind of defensive defense.

However:

I don't know what Wal Mart's motives are, other than the obvious, maximzing profit and, thus, minimizing costs. Thus far, their moves will probably help them accomplish both of these goals. They are big enough so that small changes make a big difference. A lessor retail chain probably wouldn't be as quick to pick up upon the positive effects of less energy intensive stores, daylighting, solar PV, etc.

Wal Mart is the largest corporation in the world and will probably remain so for the foreseeable future. While I might question their motives, I embrace whatever positive actions they can take to lower energy consumption and encourage others to do so.

Wal Mart may have acquired the ability to see the future and what they see does not appear to them to be good for them personally or for the planet. If the planet implodes, so does Wal Mart.

Wal Mart may also understand Kunstler's view that they are doomed in an oil deficient world. Their business model is very much dependent upon cheap energy. Desperate times may call for desperate moves.

Monbiot makes the suggestion in his book Heat, that the current big box retailers need to become warehouses where all customer interface is through delivery trucks. It is much more efficient to make a round trip delivering to multiple customers than each customer making his or her round trip to the Wal Mart. Also, warehouses don't require the energy that retail stores do. Just think of the savings in air conditioning and heating. Yes, they still need heating and AC but not to the same degree when dealing with the general public. Employees can strip down in Summer and wear down in winter.

Yes, Wal Mart has killed off most of the mom and pop stores, especially in the small towns across America. Besides the fact that that is already a done deal, those mom and pops would/could never take the steps that Wal Mart; nor could they have the immediate impact.

Tstreet said this:

"Yes, Wal Mart has killed off most of the mom and pop stores, especially in the small towns across America. Besides the fact that that is already a done deal, those mom and pops would/could never take the steps that Wal Mart; nor could they have the immediate impact."

What it means without the mom & pop stores(actually many have been run by a family and in some cases for a long long time) is that many in the rural areas that WM affected now have to drive many long miles to purchase what they could have purchased far closer to home. In my case 32 miles one way.

I still go to the next town to one of those family stores and give them my business. I know all of them and they are basically honest folk and the markup is very little if any at all. The quality of some items is better as well.

Destroying small towns is not a nice thing to do. Consider what happens to miles traveled when this occurs. How many people are put out of work and can't go far away and wouldn't get the worthless job anyway. Small town stores are far more loyal to their help as well.

I do shop at Walmart sometimes but I despise it. If I do go I buy enough not to have to come back for a long time.

They're making the changes because states in the northeast are shutting them out. NYC, for instance, is fighting tooth and claw to keep them out. If they behave themselves, they migth not be banned from the only "unconquered" parts of the US.

This is how it is supposed to work. Corporations do their thing, governments make the rules and stack the deck so that corporations find it in their best interest to do what is in people's best interest. It works find with a firm (and intelligently applied) hand from the local government.

To say that preagricultural humans lived in sustainable societies is highly questionable. The first great population explosion in human prehistory apparently resulted from the invention of the bow and arrow and also the spear thrower: By increasing the effectiveness of hunters the human diet improved and population increased.

Oh my yes, population did increase and game decreased to the point where hunting became relatively unimportant as horticulture (gardening) took over as the main source of food. Horticultural societies can become large and complex, as they did in China and also in Egypt before the invention of the plow. Horticultural societies (and even nomadic hunters and gatherers) can deforest and destroy huge areas of land.

Now the invention of plow agriculture did make everything much worse, particularly insofar as the large food surpluses made possible large armies, big wars, and "hydraulic despotism" based on the control of irrigation. Preindustrial agricultural society was horrible; for example, the status of women fell to alltime lows, and human inequality was the most extreme it has ever been. The only good thing about agricultural society is that it gave way to industrial society, which, with all its flaws is less bad than were preindustrial agricultural societies. Now we live in post-industrial societies in the first world, and potentially these can become good societies, as we see happening in, for example, Sweden.

It is a huge mistake to romanticize the brutal realities of our preagricultural past.

So how would you do it?

I would keep a close eye on successful countries such as Sweden and figure out how they have been able to implement so many constructive policies. Minnesota is a state full of Swedes, and what Sweden can do, we in Minnesota can too--I hope.

On a national level we need to slam the door shut on immigration and keep it shut. Unfortunately, this enlightened policy gores the oxen of the powers that be--no chance of it happening.

Apart from immigration, the U.S. has solved its problem of population growth. We have wrecked a lot of our land, but because God loves drunkards and Americans, She gave us lots and lots of land, much of which is still in pretty good shape. We have huge resources of timber and water, and much of our agricultural land can be repaired.

The U.S. political process is broken and I think cannot be fixed. To look to the national government for constructive steps is, I fear, to be quite foolishly optimistic. The market won't "save" us, but market forces (e.g. much higher prices for oil and natural gas) may help us to take some halting steps in good directions.

The political process is not broke. You just don't like the current trend. We get the govt's that we deserve and that reflect mainstream desires; and some perceptions have become reality.

If any deserved political ideology is not being served, it is because its proponents have not done a satisfactory job of selling it ... that's all. If the majority don't like a new idea, there may be reasons that u aren't considering in the big picture.

Have we learned anything ??

"Agriculture was probably the most important invention in human
history. It enabled the rise of world civilizations. But many ancient
societies repeatedly chose short-sighted food production practices
that spoiled their environments and undermined their civilizations.

It is tempting to believe that our earliest ancestors lived in
complete harmony with nature. But this was not the case. From the
very beginning of human life, people changed their environment,
sometimes in very damaging ways.

Archaeologists have evidence that small hunting and gathering groups
in many parts of the world set forest and prairie fires to get rid of
unwanted vegetation. Hunters also used fires to flush out game. These
fires often changed plant and animal habitats in ways that favored
food resources most beneficial to humans.

Hunters in North America drove herds of buffalo over cliffs to their
death. But the hunters could use the meat of only a few of the dead
animals, which sometimes numbered in the thousands. In some places,
over-hunting caused the extinction of some animals and birds. "These
first American settlers," says one environmental historian, "left a
trail of destruction across the continent."

After thousands of years of constantly moving in search of food, the
people in a few isolated areas of the world began to settle favorable
areas. These people could do this only when they learned how to
cultivate food crops and domesticate animals. Beginning about 10,000
years ago, this agricultural revolution was probably the most
important human invention of all time.

Farming allowed people to live in the same place for long periods of
time. After planting, it gave people more time to focus on art,
religion, and architecture. In time, it led to cities, labor
specialization, class systems, and more leisure time. Civilizations
could not have developed without the invention of agriculture.

Agriculture and the Environment

At first, farming required more work than hunting and gathering. But
agriculture had one big advantage. Growing crops and raising animals
on a limited area of land could sustain a larger population, which
made a group more powerful. Once people understood this, they began
to construct permanent homes. This eventually led to cities and all
the other things that define a civilization.

The first agricultural settlements of 50 to 100 persons emerged
primarily in hilly areas of Southwest Asia. These areas today make up
Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, southern Turkey, and western Iran.
The climate consisted of long dry summers and short rainy winters.
The soil was naturally fertile, but thin. The world's first farmers
cultivated grains like wheat and barley along with some vegetables.
They domesticated mainly sheep and goats.

As the village populations grew, farmers cleared more land for
planting. They burned forests and plowed up the groundcover. In the
meantime, their herds of sheep and goats increased, requiring more
land to graze. Goats in particular are very efficient grazers, eating
weeds and other plants of little use to people.

As more people settled in villages, they constructed houses and other
buildings, often with wood. They also used wood as a fuel for
cooking, heating, and burning lime to make plaster.

By about 6000 B.C., they had eliminated most of the forests around
their villages. In addition, much of the natural groundcover was gone
due to grazing by goats and intense farming. The dry climate required
a long time for trees, other natural vegetation, and the soil to
regenerate. With ever more mouths to feed, however, the farmers could
not wait. They could not afford to let the land remain fallow
(unplanted) for more than a year or two.

Finally, the winter rains began to erode the thin bare soil, ruining
the land for farming. Farmers cleared new lands, but the same cycle
of deforestation, erosion, and ruined land took place. Gradually,
food production decreased. The population dropped. Sometimes, people
abandoned entire villages.

The Sumerian Puzzle

The Tigris and Euphrates rivers begin in the mountains of Turkey and
flow south for more than a thousand miles through modern-day Iraq to
the Persian Gulf. Known in ancient times as Mesopotamia, the lands
between these two rivers lacked adequate rainfall for agriculture.
But people could always use water from the rivers for their crops.

By 5000 B.C., many small farming villages flourished near the banks
of the two great rivers. The farmers dug simple ditches to irrigate
their fields of wheat, barley, and vegetables. The resulting increase
in the food supply led to a population explosion.

Several hundred years later, independent city-states like Ur arose.
They had populations ranging from 10,000 to 50,000 people. By 3000
B.C., the city-states of southern Mesopotamia had formed the world's
first civilization, called Sumer.

The Sumerians developed a complex class system that included priests,
rulers, a government bureaucracy, craft workers, merchants, laborers,
soldiers, and peasants who worked the fields. The rulers organized
major building projects in the cities. They constructed canals for a
large irrigation system that opened more land for growing food crops.
The Sumerians also developed the world's first writing system.

In the early 20th century, archaeologists in Mesopotamia puzzled over
the barren desert that had once been a rich and powerful
civilization. "What happened to Sumer?" they asked themselves.

Over the centuries, silt carried by the Tigris and Euphrates built up
the stream beds. Eventually, the surrounding farmlands were below the
level of the rivers. The Sumerians constructed levees to contain the
rivers, which worked except during major floods.

The irrigated water went to the fields, where it often collected on
the surface. The hot Mesopotamian sun evaporated the standing water
and left behind layers of salt. The soil also became waterlogged in
places. This caused the water table to rise, bringing more salt to
the surface. One clay tablet with Sumerian writing recorded that "the
earth turned white."

The only solution to this salt problem, called salinization, was for
the Sumerians to leave the land unwatered and fallow for several
seasons to allow the water table to fall. The scarce rains would then
slowly draw the salt down below the soil cultivation zone.

The Sumerian farmers knew that leaving the land alone for a while was
the right thing to do. But the rulers of Sumer had based their wealth
and power on the skills and labor of an ever-growing population.
Therefore, they ordered the farmers to continue irrigating and
planting the damaged land to produce more food.

Wheat is less tolerant of salt than barley. Based on clay tablet
records, barley gradually replaced wheat in the Sumerian diet. Soon,
the yields of barley and the other crops decreased steadily. The
Sumerian people began to suffer from hunger, which led to
malnutrition and disease.

The shortsighted demands of the Sumerian rulers led to the collapse
of their civilization. The rulers could no longer feed and pay for
large armies. Peasant revolts and warfare among the Sumerian city-
states erupted over control of remaining fertile farmlands. Finally,
in 2370 B.C., the Akkadian Empire from the north conquered a weakened
Sumer.

By 1800 B.C., agriculture in southern Mesopotamia had almost
disappeared, leaving an impoverished people who lived on a desolate
and poisoned land. The world's first civilization had created a
monumental environmental disaster.

Short-Term Gains and Long-Term Consequences

The pattern of shortsighted treatment of the environment continued in
most of the other cradles of civilization. In the Indus River Valley
of India, another rich society based on irrigation agriculture arose
around 2300 B.C.

Once again, a vast irrigation system caused soil salinization. In
addition, the people constructed their buildings with kiln-fired
bricks. The kilns required huge amounts of wood to fuel the firing
process. Within a few hundred years, the people had cleared the
hillside forests, causing severe erosion of the farmlands in the
valley below. By 1900 B.C., the people of the Indus River Valley
civilization had abandoned their once-impressive cities.

In China, farmers in the northern plains plowed the grasslands to
plant millet, another grain crop. But wind and rain soon eroded the
soil. Massive deforestation also added to the erosion disaster. For
centuries afterward, silt from the erosion clogged Chinese rivers,
causing frequent destructive floods and the loss of millions of lives.

One of the major cradles of civilization avoided an environmental
crisis for more than 7,000 years. Egypt's Nile River floods annually,
washing away any salt deposits and laying down new fertile soil. This
natural cycle enabled Egyptian farmers to sustain high crop yields
year after year.

In modern times, Egypt built dams on the Nile to control the floods
and hold reserves of water. But the dams also blocked the fertile
silt from reaching the farmlands and replenishing the soil. Today,
Egyptian agriculture depends heavily on expensive commercial
fertilizers.

Most ancient environmental disasters occurred because of the
salinization or erosion of farmlands caused by irrigation systems,
deforestation, and overgrazing by domesticated animals. In these
ways, the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings in Greenland, Mayans in
Central America, Native Americans in the Southwest, and Polynesians
on Pacific islands all damaged their environments to some degree.

Climate changes and warfare often added pressure on civilizations
already weakened by environmental disasters. In virtually every case,
however, people contributed to their own downfall by over-exploiting
their environment for short-term gains while ignoring the long-term
consequences."

http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria18_4a.htm

Our county is in the process of rezoning much of our ag land to
residential and our native brothers and sisters are converting there
land to casinos and golf courses

jmy in ca

I think you can dismiss the idea of a steady state society solely by the fact that societies are dynamic systems.

We cannot do it.

Totally agree. The very nature of life on this planet is of ups and downs. Civilizations rise and collapse (Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Chinese...)

Can you teach yeast in a petrie dish to live in a steady state?

In my mind we always live at the edge of what technology allows. As technology continuously improves, the edge continues to move... until one day there's a 'collapse.'

It's my opinion that predicting the collapse is folly. You can't.

Peak Oil could be the catylyst for such a collapse, or it might not. Who's to say?

The bottom line is their has always been money to be made in predicting these collapses. Club of Rome, DieOff.org, DailyReckoning, The Religious Right, and thousands of others... They all have their own spin, but they are all essentially the same.

"The collapse is coming."

When?

"Soon. Protect yourself."

How?

"Read this website. Heed our advice. Buy these stocks. Buy gold. Worship with us. Visit our advertisers."

And it's not that they give horrible advice. Most seem to recommend living within your means. Diversification. Embracing personal relationships with your neghbors.

But don't let them fool you - they can't predict collapse.

Can you teach yeast in a petrie dish to live in a steady state?

Well, I guess I believe humans actually are smarter than yeast. ;-) Diamond describes several cultures that have lived sustainably for thousands of years.

The price is steep, though. For example, on one island, they killed all the pigs. They decided the pigs were eating food people needed, and only a few people - the elite - ever got to eat pork. So they killed them all. (Bet it was some barbecue.)

In another example, the king has set a hard population limit. If they go over, people are sent away. Population control is encouraged, often in ways considered controversial here: abortion, infanticide, and suicide. (It was considered quite glamorous to hop in a boat and sail off into the sunset...even though everyone knows such adventures are almost certain death.)

Speaking of Diamond, did you see this?


Rats, not men, to blame for death of Easter Island

A vast army of rodents gnawed its way through the Pacific paradise's palm nuts and left it a wasteland

It was the first and most extreme ecological disaster. Easter Island, in the south Pacific, once lush with subtropical broadleaf forest, was left barren and vast seabird colonies were destroyed after the arrival of man.

But now there is new evidence that human beings may not have been responsible for the destruction after all. Although Easter Island has long been held to be the most important example of a traditional society destroying itself, it appears that the real culprits were rats - up to three million of them.

Yes, I posted it over at PeakOil.com. It's not really a new story, though. It first hit the press a year or so ago, during a special Easter Island conference. It's still disputed by various other Rapa Nui researchers.

What I found more interesting was another paper given at that conference, which found that Easter Islanders saw collapse coming, but couldn't do anything to avert it. They made some changes in their technology and social structure, but it wasn't enough. Still, even on Easter Island, collapse was slow. They estimated that it was two generations - 50 years or so - from the time they realized they were running out of essential resources to the descent into warfare and cannibalism.

Funny to hear you say that Leanan. From past messages I got the impression you thought collapse was inevitable.

It's not that we're not smarter then yeast. It's that the nature of life is to expand as long as resources are available, and then collapse when the resources become depleted.

Sure, small pockets may choose to live sustainably (maybe the Amish, or your "King") but that does nothing to protect them from a collapse caused by external factors. (Tidal wave, meteor, etc...)

Life expands as much as possible because that gives the greatest chance of surviving the collapse.

Garth

From past messages I got the impression you thought collapse was inevitable.

That's just Odo's propaganda. ;-)

Sure, small pockets may choose to live sustainably (maybe the Amish, or your "King") but that does nothing to protect them from a collapse caused by external factors. (Tidal wave, meteor, etc...)

Well, probably little can be done about meteor impacts. In the very long run, all life on earth is extinct, no denying that.

However, it is possible to protect against tidal waves. And indeed, that is what happened during the 2004 Christmas tsunami. Over 200,000 people died, and it was feared that the indigenous tribes living on a couple of islands in the area had been wiped out. Instead, not a single one died. They had the tribal knowledge to deal with the tsunami. Apparently, when they feel an earthquake or see the sea receding, they all know to run for the interior. And living as they do, there were no beachfront hotels wiped out, no roads, bridges, sewer or water systems to repair. It was no big deal to them.

More problematic, IMO, is warfare. Sustainable societies tend to get wiped out by their unsustainable neighbors, unless they are somehow isolated (as with Diamond's island societies).

Life expands as much as possible because that gives the greatest chance of surviving the collapse.

And yet, at least some humans have avoided collapse altogether by not expanding.

I think the odds are against us, but it's at least theoretically possible to achieve sustainability. Or at least, as Homer-Dixon puts it, "graceful failure."

/Sustainable societies tend to get wiped out by their unsustainable neighbors/

This is a slight twist on the thesis of Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man". Fukuyama wrote that liberal democracy and capitalism (i.e. the "unsustainable neighbors") will continue to spread over the globe bc/ they will economically outcompete centrally controlled governments. Furthermore, most people across the globe will strive to live in a liberal democracy (with its profligate use of resources), i.e. many third world people aspire to live like Americans or Australians do; not many third world people dream of living like the Cubans do.

Fukuyama recently distanced himself from other neo-conservatives saying that although liberal democracies will still outcompete and overrun centrally controlled or traditional societies, he felt neo-conservatives had abused his ideas as justification for the attack on Iraq and other imperialistic behaviors.

Here's the article where Fukuyama tried to peel the neo-conservatives off of his intellectual coat-tails.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/magazine/neo.html?ei=5090&en=4126fa38f...

Maybe, but at the same time, it's unclear that there will be "unsustainable neighbors" in the very near future. The fact that the entire world is now explored and reachable within a day of travel kindof shuts out the possibility of barbarians coming from beyond the edge of the known world to wipe us out, barring UFOs or something.

Also, people never before had the ability to not have children. In the past, it was have children, or don't have sex (and probably be destitute, as work was still generallly a thing of muscle, and men just had more of it), not surprisingly, people had kids. Now that (in the first world) the work is done by machines, and having children is optional, people are deciding not to. The area of falling birthrates is rapidly expanding, and it's not hard to imagine (the projections even predict this) that in 50 years there might be few if any places with a growing population. All this without even considering the possibility of any calamity whatsoever.

It is fairly likely that we'll see a real problem (easter island style, or perhaps AI style, if you saw the movie) in the next couple hundred years, but it's most likely going to be from people just deciding they have better things to do than have kids. Japan is already there, Russia, Europe and China are joining them as we speak, and the US is on the way. If India does the same, then where exactly are all these people swamping the globe going to come from?

One more thing, collapsing societies are kindof a european view on the world. Japan has had more or less one continuous society for thousands of years, same can be said of China. Rome was a spectacular bust, but then again, the city has been continuously inhabited for thousands of year, whoever they were calling king on any given day seems fairly irrelvant, in retrospect.

I do remember you telling me that long term catabolic collapse was inevitable, if my memory (my bounded human brain) has been unfair I sincerely apologize.

I appreciate the smiley on "odo's propaganda," but I did remember an exchange from just a few days ago. I asked:

When you say "burying gold in the backyard and stocking up on guns and ammo" do you mean that nothing can be done to save industrial society at large?

and your answer:

Well...nothing that an individual can do.

I guess to be fair I should just ask you to explain what that means, so that I don't jumpt to conclusions .... "nothing that an individual can do."

World population is projected to max out at between 9 and 10 billion people by as early as 2050. Projections vary and assume status quo resource availability; numerous sources are easily found but here are two: U.S. Census Bureau and The Story of Wheat. So even in the absence of serious resource shortages, the rate of growth of world population has been slowing for several decades already (growth peaked in percentage terms at +2.19% in 1963, and in absolute terms at +87.8 million in 1989, according to the U.S. Census table). So I would conclude from that that 1) we are different from yeast, and 2) it is not necessarily the nature of life to expand as long as resources are available.

Interestingly, many conservatives are fretting about the coming population declines - see The Problem of Shrinkage.

If the last "Limits To Growth" analysis was correct, we are already 25% into overshoot (i.e. they estimate the carrying capacity of the Earth at around 5 billion). A population of 9.5 billion, ceteris paribus, will represent an overshoot of around 90%.

I see nothing in that projection that is grounds for optimism. All the more so given that I think their 25% figure is optimistic.

Interestingly, many conservatives are fretting about the coming population declines - see The Problem of Shrinkage.

Not a surprise to anyone who has read Tainter. A drop in population (or even insufficient growth) is a big problem to TPTB. They need warm bodies - to labor, to pay taxes, to march off to war in defense of the empire.

And it's not just conservatives. Japan, Australia, and many European governments are trying to encourage their citizens to have more children, via tax incentives and the like. The pyramid scheme requires constant growth, and they know it.

The slowdown that is occurring now is exactly the slowdown that occurs in the last few generations of any species experiencing an overshoot growth curve. There is nothing new in this slowdown and it is to be expected. Indeed, the slowdown is a sign that the collapse (the downslope on the other side of the geometric curve) is about due.

And if you do not believe we have grown geometrically, the global population has increased almost 5-fold since the birth of my mother, never before in human history has population exploded this fast on this sort of a scale.

This graph clearly shows the exponential growth.

Even the growth of the last several centuries, which was huge, does not compare to the 20th century. From a global population of roughly 750 million in 1500 AD we reached 1.3 billion by 1930. Yet today, just 77 years later we are nearly at 7 billion. What has happened in the last century is unprecedented for homo sapiens and it will lead to ecological corrections. Our only choice is to correct the imbalance or let nature choose how to correct the imbalance.

Finally, what you and others apparently fail to understand is that any steady percentage growth is an exponential function and therefore an exponential curve.

You may want to listen to Dr. Albert Bartlett and rethink your assumptions. Start with part 1 and listen to all 7 parts. It's informative and entertaining at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=albert+Bartlett&search=Search

Tainter noted that as well: as a society approaches collapse, the population growth rate slows. The population may even drop.

I accept completely the fact that we are growing like yeast, as well as the proposition that our population will collapse like yeast when our critical resources run out. However, I have yet to see a convincing argument that resource shortages are behind the observed slowing of population growth. In fact, growth is slowing most in the most resource-rich parts of the world. This doesn't seem to follow the accepted overshoot/dieoff pattern.

It may be that the pressures of resource shortage (in the form of rising costs) are making themselves felt overall and are indirectly manifesting in a slowing growth rate. That seems like more than a bit of a stretch, though. Any attempt to link a dieoff mediated by resource exhaustion to the current slowdown in population growth has to address the fact that the most resource depleted portions of our world are still growing most rapidly.

My opinion is that we will see a sharp population reduction in the not-too-distant future, but that the current slowdown is evidence more for the theory of Demographic Transition than for an imminent overshoot-driven collapse. While I believe that will happen, I don't think this slowdown is sufficient evidence to support the hypothesis.

However, I have yet to see a convincing argument that resource shortages are behind the observed slowing of population growth.

-------

I don't think this slowdown is sufficient evidence to support the hypothesis

What on earth are you talking about? What hypothesis?

Sorry, that wasn't very clear. The hypothesis is that humanity's overshoot will result in a population crash analagous to yeast in a vat of fermenting grape juice.

The current slowdown of population growth is being presented as some level of supporting evidence. I maintain that while it is suggestive, it doesn't reach the level of evidence because of the problems I pointed out.

GG,

I've never actually done the yeast "test", but see no reason to doubt its veracity, or symbolic value.

I would also on a hunch bet a lot that right before the crash, population growth would level off. The prime feeders would be too busy gobbling up and defending the last remaining bits to procreate, the rest of the pack would be fed increasinly less. Makes sense.

Yes, that would make sense. Right now we only have half the puzzle, though. The prime feeders are indeed busy gobbling and not procreating, which is what the theory of Demographic Transition sort of addresses. and the rest are being fed less. What we don't have is evidence that the growth rate among the rest is being impacted because of that lower feeding. Logic tells us it will happen eventually, but since it's not happening yet the picture is not clear. We are left with an inductive conclusion, rather than one based on physical evidence.

It may be that the pressures of resource shortage (in the form of rising costs) are making themselves felt overall and are indirectly manifesting in a slowing growth rate. That seems like more than a bit of a stretch, though.

Pop. growth slows in rich parts of the world because children become an expense (more than a cool half million in Switz. for a kid who will get top education) as opposed to an investment - hands and feet and bodies, that is kids, young people, who will provide labor, manpower, care for the elderly; can be sold and traded, rented out, represent capital.

Those who use tractors and buy cars and imported sushi and Vuitton bags have no interest in children beyond family cosiness, social acceptability, and so on, provided, of course, they can afford it (two looks better than one.)

Many western Gvmts. prefer ‘native’ labor to immigrant labor (as do the people who elect the officials.) They thus ask parents to make great financial sacrifice. Then they have to compensate for it, or invent incentives, which are only partly effective.

(Dupe Deleted - Sorry)

GliderGuider,

If you think of the earth as the petrie dish, and the industrial revolution as the grapefruit juice, I think my analogy is pretty good.

Could the slowing of growth be because all the easily mined resources are gone. Basically we're getting less and less of a return on our investment. Sort of an EROEI for natural resources? The low hanging fruit has all been picked...

I know there are limits to the number of times steel can be recycled.

Garth

Let's see how little you know, GG. The most oil resource rich parts of the planet are the ME countries, and they are experiencing tremendous population growth. In Europe where oil is in severe decline, they are experiencing popultaion decline. So much for your post.

On the off chance you were being serious, let's take a look at fertility rates.

First, the 20 highest oil producers:

Saudi Arabia - 5.8
Russian Federation - 1.4
USA - 2.0
Iran - 2.8
Mexico - 2.8
China - 1.8
Canada - 1.6
Venezuela - 3.0
Norway - 1.9
United Arab Emirates - 3.4
Kuwait - 2.9
Nigeria - 5.2
Algeria - 3.8
Iraq - 5.3
United Kingdom - 1.7
Brazil - 2.3
Libya - 3.8
Kazakhstan - 2.3
Angola - 6.8
Indonesia - 2.6

The average global fertility rate is 2.9. Of the top 20 above, 7 are above the average and 13 are below it. On a first analysis, oil resources don't seem to be strongly correlated with fertility.

Now let's look at the 20 highest:

Saudi Arabia
Oman
Chad
Congo (Brazzaville)
Sierra Leone
Togo
Rwanda
Burundi
Ethiopia
Liberia
Mozambique
Congo (Kinshasa)
Burkina Faso
Mali
Angola
Malawi
Niger
Afghanistan
Uganda
Somalia
Yemen

And the 20 lowest:

Bulgaria
Italy
Romania
Spain
Bosnia
Estonia
Germany
Greece
Latvia
Slovenia
Austria
Belarus
Hungary
Japan
Lithuania
Portugal
Russia
Slovakia
Ukraine
Armenia

Would you say the high fertility countries are, generally speaking, less resource-rich than the low fertility countries? So would I. So much for your post.

I always look at fertility rates as a function of education and resources. If you are educated and have enough resources the selection of horizonal refreshment is one of many choices and if one chooses this option the ability to minimize the damage of the refreshment is easily remedied. In the countries with low education and low resources the only choice for entertainment is horizontal and this option is choosen with greater frequency.

This is one of the reasons why I advocate against feeding programs as the first thing one does when the belly is full is too arrange entertainment, which results in more children.

I remember as an undergrad some 30 years ago being a bit shocked by a professor saying he too was against the feeding and medical programs in the 3rd world. His reasoning unless their was economic improvement all we were doing was creating a bigger problem down the road. Well 30 years later I hate to have to admit his calloused comments were correct. So what does that say about the world savers like Gates? Is he really just an inhuman purveyor of continued misery and suffering?
Another black mark on Gates IMO is what I saw at my daughter's H.S. Posters advertising a full ride scholarship courtesy of Gates plastered all over every column in the lunch garden. One catch you only need apply if your aren't white (minorities only). No Whites allowed!

I think the general mistake made in this kind of reasoning is comparing dissimilar cultures at a given point in time. This is essentially an apples vs oranges situation since cultural influences obscure the effects that are being researched. IMO it makes more sense to take one reference group (e.g. the US) and compare TFR over a timeline and correlate with various social, political and economic things going on during that time period. For example, after WWII there was a relatively large expansion in the US economy. There was a lot of optimism about the future. Labor unions had gained a reasonably nice share of the pie for the average worker. Against all these 'upbeat' indicators, the TFR rose and the 4 and 5 child family was common. Along about 1970 a number of things happened. The economy was choking on the 'guns & butter' policies of LBJ's Vietnam era. US oil production peaked. Median family income leveled out (and remains essentially level). The wife had to go to work to make ends meet. TFR dropped.

You can look at other periods in history in almost any country and see the same correlations between good times and bad. Cuba had an uptick in TFR after Battista was tossed out. Egypt had an uptick in TFR after the British were tossed out. Ditto India. Good times, defined by not only economic well-being but high expectations as well, leads to uptrend in the TFR. Bad times and expectation of lower opportunities leads to a downtrend in the TFR. Important factors like education act as 'enablers' for families to follow these trends.

There are many factors that correlate to TFR - resources, economics, political and cultural systems, perceptions of the value of children, perceptions of opportunity or the lack of it. The mix of influencing factors will vary right down to the individual level. I picked on resources in this subthread because we were talking about yeast, and yeast doesn't seem to care all that much about cultural expectations or future job availability...

Our only choice is to correct the imbalance or let nature choose how to correct the imbalance.

We haev no mechanism to correct that imbalance.

Maybe that's the greatest tragedy of the commons we will ever encounter.

Give everyone contraceptives and you end up in a worldwide pensioner's home.

That's not how nature functions: there's always a new growing season.

GreyZone wrote:

"...any steady percentage growth is an exponential function and therefore an exponential curve."

That sentence needs to stand as an object of contemplation for us all.

I've made a number of posts before commenting on the phenomenon of dropping fertility rates worldwide. I believe it is the most significant demographic trend in human history given that it is occuring across cultural, political and socio-economic boundaries. It gives lie to the conventional Benign Demographic Transition theory that has fertility rates dropping as a society grows more wealthy.

I think you are right about humans being smarter than yeast, possibly not smarter enough though. The real worry is overshoot-- in which case the drop in total fertility rate is too little too late.

Dropping fertility rates are common in mammals when they are living in crowded conditions caused by overshoot. It's even been noted as a natural reaction - General Adaptation Syndrome - and overcrowding is a common cause of stress which is what triggers G.A. Syndrome. And one common side effect of G.A. Syndrome is lowered fertility. This has been observed in various mammals when they have been living in ecological niches experiencing overshoot. Homo sapiens are mammals. Therefore, lacking proper scientific evidence to the contary, it is reasonable to expect the same reactions in homo sapiens. The burden of proof is upon those that claim lowered fertility and dropping birth rates are due to any cause other than those observed in other mammalian populations.

Grey Zone: Huh? Ever since women gained access to reliable birth control (maybe in the last 40 years), they have been using it like crazy. "Fertility" rates is a misnomer, what they are measuring is birth rates, which is almost totally limited by (artificial) birth control methods. Take away the Pope's influence and see what happens to the "fertility rate" of the human female mammal.

I am not talking about birth rates. I am specifically talking about fertility rates - i.e. sperm counts in males - which have been documented as dropping globally over the 20th century. Please scan the scientific literature for more discussion. There are multiple suspected causes, from iodinated salt to various pollutants to G.A. Syndrome. But Occam's Razor points (for me) at G.A Syndrome because the problem appears during the most rapid part of the exponential growth phase of our species and is a known effect in all other mammalian species undergoing the same sorts of population pressures.

GreyZone,
A couple of issues here. First, 'fertility rate' when discussed in demographics has nothing to do with biological fertility rate vis-a-vis the sperm count. The Total Fertility Rate (TFR) is nothing more than the mean number of children born to the typical woman of child-bearing age in a given reference group. Doubtful that the biological drop in sperm count has anything to do with the current drop in global TFR (I guarantee that if Italian women stop taking birth control, the TFR of Italy will skyrocket). Birth Rate on the other hand is usually expressed in terms of 'live births per 1000 population.' It doesn't take much thought to realize that it is possible to have high birth rate and low TFR or vica-versa, although it also is evident that TFR is a good leading indicator of future birth rate.

Secondly, I thing you are mistaken about GA Syndrome. This syndrome, as I understand it, is largely a physiological phenomenon based on stress, hunger and other factors. You would be hard pressed to make a scientific case for GAS being the cause of a worldwide drop in TFR, especially given that the drop is occuring most markedly in societies with high standards of living or those likely to have the least stress; but it is notable that the TFR is dropping also in poor countries, in fact it is dropping in virtually all countries. I believe the burden of proof lies with anyone proposing GAS as the cause of the drop in global TFR.

Thirdly, I don't personally think that the current 'Benign Demographic Transition' theory is very useful. One researchers, Virginia Abernethy (PDF) has formulated what she terms the 'Economic Opportunity Hypothesis' and it makes a great deal of sense to me, even while, I'm sure, not expaining the whole picture. The bottom line is that, in this view, good times = population growth, bad times = population stability or decline. It amazes me that people often trot out the exponential growth curve of population, correlating nicely with agriculture and energy use, and then explain how TFR is dropping because people are getting wealthier.

This is a subject that obviously could (and doubtless does) take up a complet internet forum, so I'll leave it at that for now.

To get some perspective on this discussion it would be helpful to have an estimate of the number of births avoided by various population control mechanisms over the last 50 years or so.

1. Government mandate: China's one-child policy having the effect of 400 million fewer births to date.

2. Cultural: the decline in industrialized countries due to (1) greater access to birth control and higher levels of education for women, (2) a concern for the environment and awareness of the long term effects of overpopulation, and (3) less reliance on a large number of children to help support the family and adoption of a quality over quantity preference (e.g. fewer offspring permitting higher education, healthier due to better nutrition, etc.)

Given the plentiful resources of Western nations, it is very plausible that in the last 50 years years that this population could have increased several fold resulting in 500 million or 1 billion more humans.

3. Natural resource depletion: e.g. periods of famine in East Africa; general issues with water scarcity leading to higher rates of morbidity and mortality, etc. I have no sense of the magnitude here. Tens of millions?

4. Global efforts to provide family planning in developing countries. Millions fewer born?

Although only #3 is directly related to resource depletion, I suppose the case can be made that the movitation in #1 and a key component for items 2 and 4 is the expectation of future resource depletion.

5. Disease not directly related to resource depletion but based on higher risk associated with density: bacterial and viral (esp. AIDS) spread.

SP,
I agree that it would be helpful to have these data. I've been interested in demographics for a while and I've found it hard to get timeline data on population issues. Sources like the CIA World Factbook and NationMaster are pretty good for current data, but a lot of important things are illuminated by viewing trends and trend data that goes back more than a few years is hard to find.

RE: China's one-child policy. I found an interesting tidbit claiming that China's TFR had already been falling rapidly when one-child was implemented in 1979.
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2004/000026.html

Puts a new light on the oft-made assertion that the powers-that-be in China slammed on the brakes in contravention of the people's preferences. Seems the leaders were doing what leaders often do, that is, following the trends already created by the people.

See previous post.

If Gnazzo had stopped where you do, I'd have no problem with him.

I share your doubts that a globally connected sustainable civilization is possible. As Leanan points out, small isolated pockets of sustainability may be possible, given some very special circumstances. The fact that such instances have historically been so rare is a good indication of how unlikely they are.

We give entirely too much credit to our own intelligence and reason when analyzing the nature of human development. After reading books like "The Spirit in the Gene", "Straw Dogs" and "The Selfish Gene" alongside Tainter, Diamond and Catton, I'm now convinced that our impression of being in conscious control of our behaviour is largely an illusion. The best we can hope to do is to unravel various truths about the universe, ourselves and how the two realms interact, in order to prepare ourselves as best we can for the probable outcome.

The more I dig into the concepts of resiliency and adaptive loops, the more I feel there is valuable knowledge about those outcomes to be gained there. Check out http://www.resalliance.org/1.php

I'm now convinced that our impression of being in conscious control of our behaviour is largely an illusion.

This sentence really struck me. I will think about it for a few days.

Thanks

I think the term "emergence" applies here. We are conscious of our own behaviour, but the systemic behaviour is not necessarily an extrapolation of the individuals' behaviours.

GliderGuider, you seem to have the exact same reading habits as I. And I agree completely, our impression of being in conscious control of our behaviour is largely an illusion.

You would probably enjoy "The Mind's Past" by Michael S. Gazzaniga, it is a real shocker. One reviewer wrote:

Gazzaniga is at his most interesting when he explores the notion of the "interpreter", a mechanism in our left brain which "creates the illusion that we are in charge of our actions and does so by interpreting our past."

Ron Patterson

- The destruction of the natural world is not the result of
global capitalism, industrialization, 'Western civilization'
or any flaw in human institutions. It is a consequence of
the evolutionary success of an exceptionally rapacious
primate. Throughout all of history and prehistory, human
advance has coincided with ecological devastation.
John Gray, "Straw Dogs"

Also look at Restak's The Naked Brain --he says same thing, namely, the part in our brain that is a loud mouth and thinks he's in charge is actually a delusional mini-ME who makes up after-the-fact rationalizations for why the body did X and the mouth blurted out Y.

I think that coming to grips with these truths is a necessary first step to understanding who "we" really are and why we behave the way we do.

Gnazzo doesn't delve into what I perceive as the subtext of the CoR's idea of balancing capital with population, which is the end of fractional reserve banking.

That's an important point. I've suspected for a while now that the fractional reserve system is going to play a major role in whatever instabilities are to come.

Of course Gnazzo didn't delve into it - I don't think his brain could parse the phrase "the end of fractional reserve banking".

There is nothing inherently wrong (or right) with fractional reserve banking. When he was a young man, Milton Friedman advocated 100% reserve banking, and that system can surely work.

The problem is not in the type of central bank or banking system you have. The problem is that central bankers may be forced to yield to inflationary pressures. Ben Bernake was deadly serious when he said that he'd have helicopters drop bundles of cash rather than see American society go through a deflation. Politically, deflation is poison.

Inflation is a sweetly addictive drug. We're hooked on inflation in the two to three percent range now, and when deficit spending gets into the multitrillion dollar range (as I expect it will, within a dozen years), then we'll see inflation tend to rise something like this: 2%, 4%, 6%, 10% and then things get really nasty once we get into multiple years of double digit inflation. Due to the humongous unfunded financial burdens of Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid and federal pensions I see no plausible scenario to escape high and rising rates of inflation.

You see, with unexpected and abrupt inflation the government can steal from savers, steal from those on Social Security, etc., and the political driving forces that prevent nominal cuts in, say, Social Security benefits will not prevent cutting them in real terms.

Little known fact: Cost of Living adjustments to Social Security are capped--at around 3% per year last time I looked. So if we want to reduce Social Security benefits three percent in real terms, all we have to do is go for a six percent inflation rate; and a ten percent inflation rate would cut real benefits by seven percent.

I do not think the working population of the U.S. will consent to be taxed at the rate that would be necessary to keep current levels of real Social Security, Medicare etc. benefits in the future.

Nobody has the slightest clue how to finance the retirement of the Baby Boomers, the first of whom just turned sixty-one years old this year. As rising waves of Boomers hit sixty-six or sixty-seven years of age, the financial feces are going to hit the whirling turbine blades--and it is not going to be pretty.

About 30 years ago Sweden where about the third richest country in the world per capita. Unfortunately the generations before mine got cocky, toyed with too much socialism, free enterprice got harder regulations and we had a global oil crisis.

The monetary solution to these problems were going into public debt, inflation, repeadetly debasing(?) the currency and even some price control. It did not work but we hade a long way to fall before becomming an average western country. :-(

I dont think were realy started to handle this well untill we joined EU and decided to make our currency and public economy EMU worthy to the letter and decoupled the running of the SEK from everyday politics. Then we did not join the Euro but we still run our currency according to sound theories, that is what my economy friends tell me. We have also for some years been repaying the debt, especially the foreign debt.

It seems to take a lot of political willpower to stop using the easy way for prolonging good times a few more years instead of solving the real problems. I dont like that we are not as rich as Switzerland is now, we should have been if our social democrats and opposition had not gone and f*ck*d things up in the 1970:s.

Wonder how long it will take USA to dig itself out of an equivalent self made hole? We are going in the right direction now but I guess it will take a generation to catch up with Switzerland if we do everything right.

I have to wonder how much realistic information we really learned from the economic systems that were jockeying throughout the 20th century, since it was so overtly bouyed by oil's subsidy, or at least this subsidy seemingly enhanced certain economies, which gave them (probably huge) advantages over others?

How would these systems fly differently in less abundant or extreme circumstances?

I have no idea.

In Sweden we had a very large build up of nuclear power in the same era made to replace oil for electricity generation and heating and for an industry expansion that did not materialize. Then our greens efforts for replacing nuclear power mostly gave us a massive use of forest biomass for heating via district heating systems replacing even more oil and coal.

I think I live in a country where a large part of the wealth is built on electricity, first hydro power and then nuclear power. I think we should invest even more in this niche and try to attract more energy intensive industry, run more wehicles on electricity and export electricity.

I see the local post peak oil future as a very energy intensive future but with expensive wehicle fuel and very expensive airline tickets.

Hi Don Sailorman.

I'm going to quibble with you on one point. You said:

"Politically, deflation is poison." Really?

If anything, a case can be made that deflation preserves the wealth and power of the most wealthy and powerful in a society. The Great Depression in the US is a good example. Contemporary Japan is a more recent one. Inflation, at least when it is severe enough, seems to undermine the influence of dominant elites. Weimar Germany, and various 20th century S. American states seem good examples.

I wonder what the financial types around TOD think of the "Fed's" ability to control inflation/deflation in the long run. I can see a case for inflation arising from the huge foreign US bond holdings that are ultimately unredemeable for anything other than dollars or other bonds. I can also see potential for severe deflation if some these massively leveraged hedge funds collapse and set off a sequence of falling debt collection dominoes with a notional value of 2 times the US GDP.

We've discussed it before, and the financial types seem split. Obviously, inflation is the easiest path for the government to take. But many don't believe the fed has the power to keep deflation at bay for long.

I'm not a financial type, but I'm in the latter camp. I don't think Helicopter Ben has enough helicopters. ;-)

Helicopter Ben needs no helicopters.

Here is how Open Market Operations (OMO) work; OMO is the main tool used in the creation of money.

Every morning of every business day there are meetings at the Fed banks where information on the real economy is discussed. Then there is more discussion of the nature of "therefore, what?" The Fed is trying to decide each and every day whether to keep monetary policy the same, ease up a bit or tighten up a bit. After the discussion (there is hardly ever a vote; this is by consensus) the Chairman or standin for the Chairman summarizes the consensus and tells the traders what to do. Then the traders go to the phones where they call up a select number (not very large) of brokers who deal with large amounts of Treasury securities. Everybody is on a first-name basis; it is all done over the phone and we are looking at huge transactions. Every single business day the Fed both buys and sells Government securities. If mostly it is buying, the Fed can pay by a check written on thin air. (Actually they do EFT, but let us not quibble.) When the Fed buys a Treasury security it creates Reserves in the banking system, Reserves than can be used as a basis to expand lending and hence the money supply.

If the Fed is mostly selling securities, the financial institutions gain the securities and give up money in return. In effect this money vanishes into a black hole or thin air, whichever you prefer. If the Fed wants to tighten money, it just sells more securities, and this will make credit less aviailable and generally (at least for short-term rates) more expensive.

Here is my big point: There is NO LIMIT WHATSOEVER on the magnitude of open market operations. The Fed can tighten or ease as much as it sees fit. In normal times they make small adjustments, but in times of crisis they can pump vast amounts of liquidity into the system in one hour.

It is really very simple once you get it. It is so simple that the mind is repelled (as John Kenneth Galbraith put it). We want to believe there is something behind money . . . . Well, there is: It is Faith in the Fed. Our currency lies where it says, "In God We Trust." No, God has nothing to do with the creation of mone (nor does the devil;-) What it should read on our currency is, "In The Federal Reserve System We Trust."

Money is based on confidence, on faith, on the expectation that the central bank will not destroy the value of money.

Deflation means foreclosures, mass bankruptcies, a decrease in the money supply as banks fail in great numbers. The Fed has tatooed across the breast of each Governor: "Never Again!" After the crash of 1929 the Fed stood by as 5,000 banks failed and a recession turned into the Great Depression. The Great Depression will never happen again, because the Fed takes it as its #1 duty to never ever under any circumstances permit deflation again. The Fed has the power. The Fed has the resolve and the tools: We are not going to see a rerun of the Great Depression.

The helicopters are a figure of speech. Ben won't need them. But if he did, he'd get all the FEMA choppers and all the federalized National Guard ones and all the Army ones and all the Air Force and Navy helicopters out there dropping small bundles of currency over the whole country. (Actually, we no longer have vast reserves of currency printed up. During the Cold War we did, and it was kept three stories underground in bomb-proof vaults at the twelve District Reserve Banks. I believe all or most of this currency has now been shredded.)

(My post at the bottom of this thread was meant to go here, quoting Bill Gross.)

The issue of deflation is a little more complicated---
the Fed can push as much as it wants to the banks, but if the banks
don't want to push it into the real economy, normal people will suffer.

This happened in Japan. Banks had plenty of new yen liquidity, but it didn't
go into the Japanese economy.

Much of it went into the carry trade and external investments and increased
the value of the US dollar, Euro and their stock markets and Chinese industrial development.

If the US gets into the same point the natural response of the US banks will also be to use the USD as a carry trade funder (i.e. borrow in it and buy bonds of foreign currencies which yield more interest) and the money doesn't intersect with the physical domestic economy.

At that point you have to do different things to get the money actually to people, hence the virtual "helicopter drops". Maybe the Fed would buy US stocks? Subsidize domestic lending? Monetize the debt? (thereby, encouraging inflationary beliefs leading to people buying stuff now as opposed to later, as with deflation).

This is exactly the problem I have with the inflation vs deflation argument. My (albeit poorly informed) impression on Weimar Germany is that the average Josef Schmo was by some means given the dough to put in the wheelbarrows to buy the loaves of bread. The Fed seems addicted to the 'trickle down' paradigm in which the money is fed to the upper echelons and the trickle may never happen. I think Ben may literally have to use helicopters, or at least some scheme to put money directly into the hands of the great unwashed.

The lesson learned from Japan was that even in a modern society, deflation is dangerous 'cuz of the old habit of awaiting better prices next week, next month, next year. No matter how much liquidity u throw, folks won't buy if they can get it cheaper tomorrow.

That was not Japan's only problem. With an aged demographic, many families don't need anything else except adult diapers. GDP can go negative if the population turns to savers from spenders...

Don, I believe what you say. WT, this is why the "Iron Triangle" has won and will keep winning until a revolution changes something. It is truly becoming a waste of time to try to change a large number of minds in this country. There will come a time, but it is not now. We may very well be past Peak, but there is so much manipulation from the Fed, Central Banks, etc., that it will be hidden until the very end.

Best to make whatever preparation you deem necessary and go on with your life. Convincing people outside this group is not going to happen soon.

Don, this was a nice little essay but u left out the most important sentence: Printing money has consequences.

We saw in Argentina what happens with mismanagement at the macro economic level. Not too long ago they were a big player in the world economy. They were a member of the g-20. And they have never learned from the past.

When one thumbs their noses at commitments or norms on debt to gdp ratios or deficiti to gdp ratios, your currency is at risk. It happened to Argentina and New Zealand and to Canada and to Japan and to Germany and to...

So yes, your tirade on printing money and treasuries is true. But no modern economy tries it 'cuz they know everything is transparent and they will pay dearly thru imported inflation.

Summary of Weekly Petroleum Data for the Week Ending January 5, 2007

U.S. commercial crude oil inventories (excluding those in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve) dropped by 5.0 million barrels compared to the previous week. However, at 314.7 million barrels, U.S. crude oil inventories remain above the upper end of the average range for this time of year. Total motor gasoline inventories rose by 3.8 million barrels last week, and are near the upper end of the average range. Distillate fuel inventories rose by 5.4 million barrels, and are above the upper end of the average range for this time of year. Increases were seen in both high-sulfur distillate fuel (heating oil) inventories and diesel fuel inventories (a combination of ultra-low-sulfur and low-sulfur). Total commercial petroleum inventories jumped by 7.4 million barrels last week, and are above the upper end of the average range for this time of year.

And oil continues its relentless decline, fast approaching the $54 barrel threshold. Interesting that every category is 'above the upper end of the average range for this time of year'.

Bring out the doomers~

I hate speculators, but they do play an important role in the economy in most sectors. While common sense would indicate that they spike the market, as Greenspan explained in so eloquent way recently, the speculators also bring down the amplitude of the spikes in most commodities.

That is because some day they must sell their positions or put a great load on their building's freight elevator when they take delivery of oil or pork bellies.

At that time, they are flooding the market with product that otherwise would have seen relative scarcity. We saw this in Autumn 2005 and it is repeating today. We can see their positions in full transparency. We hate them when they bid up the prices. But we know that someday they have to unload. Every north american farmer with low cash flow and operating capital luvs the speculators.

It's all about cycles...

What is killing the speculators this month is their lack of due diligence. In July and August last year, there was much exposure given to short and medium term outlooks for oil production, capacity and refinery infrastructure. Some didn't read the writing on the wall...

It appears that even with the softness of heating oil sales, a new quarterly record will be set in global oil production in Q1.

If a market is falling sharply then it could be said that the market "needs" a buyer (for stability).

If a market is soaring rapidly then the market "needs" a seller.

If a speculator buys low and sells high then he makes the most money -- and provides exactly what the market "needs" -- yet, people will complain ceaselessly about "speculators". I think people should only complain about a speculator who does the opposite -- buys high and sells low, and therefore loses money. Of course, that kind of speculator will not last long.

Freddy, do you see the inventories continuing to be drawn down?

I'm not so sure the falling in price right now doesn't have more to do with momentum than it does with fundamentals.

There are a lot of dynamics at work. Venezueala is similar to North Korea. Lotsa rhetoric to get balls rolling (do not confuse with b3ndz3la's little ones). The threat of going crying to opec didn't work so now chavez is talking about nationalizing projects. This is all about desperation to stop the fall. It works for a day and then we see the trend continue.

I don't know where equilibrium is. In another thread i presumed $40 (contract ... not spot). We need january and maybe february numbers on supply and inventory to see where we are in the correction. The good news is that historic norms are being attained in surplus capacity, prices and refinery capacity.

Many are using 1999 as a benchmark but that is foolish. Real Prices in 1999 were far below norms and that setup false demand. Many sectors made decisions based on those prices being normal. It was folly. And now they are deservedly being chased out of the marketplace. It was a matter of time...

Leanan: I am sure everyone has noticed that for the last 5-6 weeks the experts/analysts are consistently too optimistic when forecasting the oil inventory numbers (this week the forecast was for a gain of 800,000). Don't know why this is happening.Their estimates aren't even close.

I do wonder if the situation has changed in a fundamental way, and people just aren't getting it. BP's production down for the sixth quarter in a row...and the number was a surprise to analysts.

Then there was yesterday's CNN story about how oil would be $35 if not for "speculators."

Followed by a linking to a blog today that, crazily enough, suggest that the recent plunge in oil prices is a result of Goldman Sachs knowing that peak oil has arrived. (laughs)

The irony of it all is that these people (Goldman Sachs) should know better then anyone that we can not get along just yet without oil, and a peak in oil would mean that prices are going to skyrocket...and consequently cause their return on investment to soar on the energy front.

But no, because the peak is already here, they're going to miss out on the most incredible speculator market in all of human history and instead refocus on Three-Horned-Tri-Lipped-Leaping-Lizard stocks (I'm being sarcastic here).

What a mad world we live in!

Shikata ga nai

Didn't you mean

"Owa Tagoo Siam" ?

You only need to look at natural gas to see how far market prices are removed from reality.

At the same exact moment when it's clear a huge problem is looming, a bit of nice weather causes a price collapse, which leads to an investment collapse, which in turn will exacerbate the problems with shortages that are undeniably just around the corner. Official EIA numbers put North American reserves at 8 years. How clear can you spell "problem"?

The main reason for this disconnect is that more and more of the investment capital, of which there is more and more, is geared towards short term profits. Hedge funds etc have grown so much that they have come to dictate the "psychology" of the market.

If someone would put investment capital, other than his own, in longer term gas futures, he would be confronted with investors who point out large hedge short term profits, and see their capital go from his fund to another.

Oil prices don't reflect any physical reality anymore, something that is hard for people to grasp, they reflect the possibilities to make fast profits. Which has no connection at all with actual reserves, or flows, or anything like that.

So whoever thinks that lower prices indicate anything at all to do with peak or no peak, you're wrong.

This may be an oil site, which explains the focus, but it would be good to look at how the enormous changes in the financial markets, that have taken over the past 5-10 years, influence the prices of many commodities. That influence, which exclusively has a short term outlook, is more important now than the actual production of oil or gas.

Wrong. There is no secret society at work behind the scenes. Nat'l gas is priced by supply and demand like everything else. Gas production in the usa was 2.9% higher in 2006 than 2005. Higher than demand grew. Exacerbated by two warm winters. And forecasts show that gas production will increase in 2007 as well.

Yes the medium term outlook is scary. LNG terminals are being stalled and cancelled by the NIMBY camps phenom. Will the Fed's increase their insistance on approvals? Do they want to get re-elected in 2008? Decisions decisions.

Leanan, I'm thinking that the energy situation has all the speculators too goosey to speculate. They're not sure who to believe so they are sitting on the sidelines waiting for enlightenment. The economy looks like its cratering, yet stock prices are holding steady. There's no inflation if you don't count the commodities we all use each day. We're past peak and oil storage is down, yet prices are falling.
And I have no idea what to believe either.

There's no inflation if you don't count the commodities we all use each day.

Perhaps there's no technical inflation because so very much of our day to day stuff is imported from China... and their currency is pegged to ours. Hairdryers (to use a favorite Kunstlarian example) are not getting more expensive... but my 25 pound bag of oats (and every other grain I buy) is rapidly rising.

Dropping oil prices don't seem so fishy to me. Even though crude supplies dropped, gasoline and distallates rose. In fact, "Total commercial petroleum inventories jumped by 7.4 million barrels last week".

Relative to crude oil inputs, crude oil inventories have fallen to 20 days consumption (versus 30 days consumption in the early Eighties).

Total petroleum imports remain low at 11.2 mbpd (four week running average), but we showed a build in product inventories.

I wonder if we are seeing a tug of war between: (1) Declining world export capacity and (2) Slowing demand, due to a combination of weather factors and a slowing economy.

In 2005, combined Saudi and Russian exports (total liquids) were 15.8 mbpd. It takes the sum of the exports of the next seven largest exporters to equal Saudi Arabia and Russia.

Based on EIA numbers, Saudi Arabia and Russia showed a one year increase in total liquids consumption, from 2004 to 2005, of 560,000 bpd. I see no evidence that this rate of increase has slowed. Ponder the impact of Saudi Arabia and Russia increasing their consumption by one mbpd every two years.

Saudi Arabia's crude oil production is reportedly down by 1.1 mbpd from 9/05 to 2/07. Russia has already admitted to lower exports, year over year. I predict that an actual decline in Russian production will accelerate the decline in Russian exports this year.

If oil prices are reflecting a tug of war between declining exports and declining demand, my bet is on declining exports. If any case, we should have a very good idea of what is really going on in the next few weeks and months.

Russia has admitted to a year over year decline in exports, but what is particularly interesting is the decline in exports since June, 2006. According to a chart in the following article, oil exports to countries outside the CIS have steadily fallen through December, by a total of 600,000 bpd: http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1168362120.php

The Big Three--Saudi Arabia; Russia and Norway--accounted for half of the exports by the top 10 net oil exporters in 2005.

According to the EIA, the Big Three showed a combined increase in Total Liquids consumption of about 600,000 bpd from 2004 to 2005.

If we plug in a similar increase in consumption for 2006, the 1.1 mbpd decline in Saudi crude production, the probable 400,000 bpd drop in Norwegian production, and a 300,000 bpd (?) decline in Russian exports to non-CIS countries, it looks like the decline in net exports by the Big Three, as of 2/07, from the 2005 average, could easily be on the order of 2.5 mbpd.

The problem, as I noted a year ago, is that these three regions, based on the HL method, are hugely depleted: Saudi Arabia, about 60% depleted; Russia, about 85% depleted; Norway, about 70% depleted.

As I predicted a year ago, I foresee rising domestic consumption and falling domestic production ahead for the Big Three.

Russia, about 85% depleted

85% depleted? Last year you were saying Russia was 88% depleted, another year at 9.5 mbb/d should leave Russia at least 90% depleted.

Thanks for the correction. I didn't go back and check the number in last year's essay.

Russia has only just now produced what the HL model predicted for post-1984 cumulative production, which suggests that they should start showing a sharp decline in production, which is why the reported 600,000 bpd decline in exports in the last half of 2006 caught my attention.

You are still chasing the wrong rabbit, Jeffrey. Oil production and exports were feeding a false and frenzied market. The speculators weaned and burned in dotcom moved on to the gold shows, again got burned and moved on to spot oil. They were the main buyers in the Spring of 2005 and again in Autumn 2006. These speculators are for the most part neophytes and do not understand the seasonal production cycles and dynamics of this sector.

They are getting burned this month and paying the price of their ignorance.

Demand destruction is in play. But so also is the absence of speculative buyers. It's a double whammy. Add in non-opec new capacity and we got a triple. Add in a few economies at 2% GDP and ...

You have a failed theory, Jeffrey. For the fourth time i ask: at what future production level in KSA, Russia & globally will u admit your hypothesis is flawed??

Your propaganda has failed. Isn't it possible the spectulators are right? The speculators could be shorting. Oh, and some of them are buying. Somebody is always getting burned this month.

You are not competent at the art of propaganda so why don't you give up.

If "Oil production and exports were feeding a false and frenzied market." would we not see inventory rising rapidly over the entire period. You are not making any sense at all.

For the fourth time i ask: at what future production level in KSA, Russia & globally will u admit your hypothesis is flawed??

While I won't say I agree or disagree with Freddy, I think this is a fair and valid question to ask.

WestTexas, what data would you consider to falsify your hypothesis? What can we definitively see that would finally conclude that the theory you are operating on is false?

Without some sort of possible falsification how can we pin down your theory as being right or wrong? Currently (and I'm not accusing you of this) you could just jump all over the place to keep your theory alive. I would like, from you, a set of data you would consider as falsifying your theory.

EIA This Week In Petroleum (1/10/07): ". . . the large crude oil draw this week not "as alarming" as it may first appear. . . the draw last week was a continuation of draws seen over the last several weeks"

First, regarding crude oil, inputs into refineries increased while imports declined substantially. With domestic production relatively flat from week to week, additional supply for refineries must come from either imports and/or drawdowns from inventories. If crude oil inputs into refineries increase, and imports decrease significantly, a large crude oil inventory drawdown must occur. Given that crude oil inventories were above the average range for this time of year, there was plenty of crude oil available to draw upon, making the large crude oil draw this week not as alarming as it may first appear. Plus, the draw last week was a continuation of draws seen over the last several weeks, and inventories still remain above the average range, even after the latest draw, albeit by much less than they were several weeks ago.

No problems. All is well. Continue with your planned purchases of large SUV's.

We can continue to increase our total petroleum imports year over year . . . forever.

Amusing -
'Mr Jolissant, who was recently appointed the chief economist for the German-US DaimlerChrysler Group, said that since he started spending more time at the company's corporate headquarters in Stuttgart he had been shocked by the absurdity of European attitudes towards global warming.'

I wonder if he means his current bosses, neighbors, and staff - and in return, my guess is they are going to be shocked at his shock. Deeply, disturbingly shocked.

But since DaimlerChrysler is a 'European' company, the poor guy is in for his own shock. Considering how Germans think about fuel economony and efficiency and conservation - you wonder how they could ever afford to buy such a fine company as Chrysler. Probably by not consulting such a fine economist as himself, comes to mind.

'He said that he had been surprised by how much support there had been in the Daimler office in Stuttgart for these "quasi-hysterical" policies that smacked of "Chicken Little" politics - referring to the US children's story in which Chicken Little runs around in circles saying "the sky is falling".'

He may really be surprised when he finds himself without a job, after this little talk becomes known.

Does the American car industry truly only attract people too blind to recognize their own idiocy?

Buying Chrysler was the stupidest thing that Daimler and that nitwit Schrempp ever did.

Amd it was just determined that 2006 wins the prize for the warmest year worldwide on record. Beating 2005. 2.2 degrees above average.

Of course, this is just a "natural cycle". Record levels of CO2 in the atmosphere have nothing to do with it. Silly notion. As our president says, "Don't worry, go shopping".

Total snowfall so far this year in S. New Hampshire: 1" (melted long ago). None predicted for the next week. Natural, right...

The GW deniers I seem to be surrounded with are starting to crack. The weather is, of course, a topic of conservation. And they comment about how warm it is, and then quickly say "But I'm not complaining". I say nothing anymore, I just smile and nod my head. But I'm sure I hear a little panic around the edges. Somebody even rented "An Inconvenient Truth" (gasp!)...

Last year was the warmest year on record in the contiguous U.S., sixth warmest year on record worldwide.

People here (Geneva, Switz) are walking around shell shocked. I’m writing at 22 30 at nite and it is 14 degrees C.

Today, in town, girls sat in the sun in T shirts, they were tourists and cheerful. There was bright sun through light fog - also unknown.

Normally, we should be in snow and ice and under dense cloud (hovering at about 1000 meters) and at this time it would be minus 5 at least.

Since October, temps. have been, on a startling number of days, 10 degrees higher than ‘normal’. On 5-7 days in December temps went below zero, that was it.

A 10 or more degree difference is noticed by absolutely everyone over 15 - its like you took a plane and stepped out in Valencia or the Canaries or somewhere...

Reactions vary, but the ‘oh what a great autumn, they call it an Indian summer’ and ‘great weather, enjoy’ and ‘I love this, I’m saving on heating’ comments are no longer made. People are really worried, either expostulating, or silent and subdued. It is not something they can call the authorities about, it is a fatality.

People here (Geneva, Switz) are walking around shell shocked. I’m writing at 22 30 at nite and it is 14 degrees C.

Today, in town, girls sat in the sun in T shirts, they were tourists and cheerful. There was bright sun through light fog - also unknown.

Normally, we should be in snow and ice and under dense cloud (hovering at about 1000 meters) and at this time it would be minus 5 at least.

Since October, temps. have been, on a startling number of days, 10 degrees higher than ‘normal’. On 5-7 days in December temps went below zero, that was it.

A 10 or more degree difference is noticed by absolutely everyone over 15 - its like you took a plane and stepped out in Valencia or the Canaries or somewhere...

Reactions vary, but the ‘oh what a great autumn, they call it an Indian summer’ and ‘lovely weather, enjoy’ and ‘too cool, I’m saving on heating’ comments are no longer made. People are really worried, either expostulating, or silent and subdued. It is not something they can call the authorities about, it is a fatality.

You wacky Europeans, Always overreacting. All fuzzy-headed and inteellectual like. Relax. Read some Milton Friedman. Invisible Hand and that. Have another beer. I'll give you the keys to my Vette if you just ease off a bit. Pay no attention. Enjoy. It all goes in cycles. There's nothing new under the sun. It was ever thus. The more things change the more they stay the same. Don't worry, be happy.

In my personal experience I'd say one in twenty pays any attention whatever. Highly educated acquaintances have all seen Al Gore's movie and make policy statements (while denying reality). The only observers I meet who engage reality at all are dummies who just get out of doors sometimes and don't participate in media or education.

IN my office, I heard today: "it is so warm, it's almost abnormal.." I smiled to myself, "almost"!!!

But then the person said: but wait, there's still February to come.. I'm sure February won't change a thing.

Denial, denial..

Oh please. Yes GW is apparent but u failed to mention that both warm years (2006 & 1998) are El Nino years. I think most at TOD know the difference between climate and weather and between intra-annual weather variations and decadal cycles. Grow up.

Chrysler questions climate change: Is it possible that Mr. Jolissaint is spending too much time in an airconditioned office not to notice...anything??

The reason that bad news about the US auto industry never surprises me is that I had considerable contact with two of the Big Three during the 1970s and 1980s.

In my line of work I've had the opportunity to come in contact with many industries, but I have never seen such entrenched corporate bureaucracy and inbred narrow-mindedness as in the US auto industry of that era. Management by fear seemed to be the rule, and the kiss-up/kick-down management style pevailed. Being a low-level manager in the auto industry of that era must have been like living in a Dilbert cartoon. I supect (and hope) things have improved somewhat since then but probaby not nearly enough.

I tend to think that the odds are pretty good that one of the Big Three is going to go belly up sometime within the next decade.

Amusing and amazing.

on edit: was in response to expat's Amusing..

Yes - Americans really have no idea how incredibly out of touch their ideas seem to be. As for the numbers - roughly 300 million Americans, and roughly 470 million Europeans in the EU - but Americans are certain their beliefs are not only self-evidently correct, but dominant.

Oh well, just getting ready for the 50+ mile an hour winds in the 50°+ weather here in the Rhine Valley - or 80+ kph at 12°+ for the approximately 6 billion people who don't use the correct measurement system.

I found this of interest. The article claims, if I read it right, that 10% of USA CO2 emissions come from Texas(!??!):

TXU has some big -- and some say bad -- ideas. The utility wants to build 11 coal-fired power plants at a cost of $10 billion by 2010. To help them along, Texas' governor has "fast tracked" the permitting process, all of which has raised the ire of not just environmental groups but also many local politicos, businesses and shareholder groups.

Can be had at:

service@energycentral.com

I don't think that's unreasonable. Texas is a big state. Roughly 8% of Americans live in Texas, so 10% of emissions is only a little more than their share.

(never mind)

Not only 8% of Americans but Texas is one of the last old style industrial states around with huge numbers of refineries and consequently huge numbers of manufacturing plants that deal with hydrocarbon products such as plastic manufacturers, etc.

Long-Term Crude Supply At Risk On Demand Growth,Politics-IEA
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
January 10, 2007 10:48 a.m.
WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--A raft of global energy and security experts - including the International Energy Agency's chief economist - Wednesday warned the U.S. Senate that the world faces a global crude supply crunch in the next ten years and the U.S.'s national security and foreign policy leverage is likely to be undermined by structural changes in the global oil market.

Link?
I think a timeline showing the transformation of the IEA's language from "all is well" to increasingly panic-stricken over the last few years would be quite a funny black tragi-comedy.

Earlier in the day that was the whole text, now there is more. You need to have WSJ online to see the original, so I didn't link it. But here are some more quotes:

Testifying before the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, the intelligence, military and industry experts said the U.S. needed to dramatically change its energy policy in order to address a fundamental change in the structure of global energy markets.

IEA chief economist Fatih Birol said continuing demand growth from populous and fast-developing China and India, a peak and decline of non-OPEC production within 10 years, and uncertain investment and production capacity increases in Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia meant the global energy future was unsustainable.

Flynt Leverett - ex-intelligence analyst and a director at the New American Foundation - warned that the structural changes in the global market were dramatically impacting U.S. foreign policy.

"The most profound challenges to U.S. preeminence during the next 25 years flow from the strategic and political consequences of ongoing structural shifts in global energy markets," Leverett said.

Birol said because most of the production growth in the longer-term was coming from politically unstable states such as Iran, Venezuela and Iraq, and investment was much more uncertain than in the previous global energy market paradigm, consuming nations such as the U.S. needed to take serious policy decisions.

The IEA economist recommended the U.S. first implement energy efficiency reforms, particularly in the transport sector, but also increase domestic production, boost alternative energy sources and fuels.

I will fly to Scotland in 2 weeks, and will be without my family for 4 months. I intend to get a lot of reading done, so I am placing a book order today. I am looking for recommendations. I wrote down several the last time we discussed books, but if anyone has any other recommendations, please let me know.

The kind of books that I am most interested in are those that really challenge your thinking. Those can be in any number of different categories. I have run across science books, science fiction, novels, and even biographies that really expanded my mind. That's the word. I am looking for books to expand the mind. My particular interests are science fiction, technology, Peak Oil and sustainability (obviously), and science books (especially biology). However, I will read anything that expands the mind. Your suggestions are appreciated.

If you didn't catch my reading list the last time I posted it, here you can find the books I have read over the past 2 years:

http://r2books.blogspot.com/

Scroll down for the 2005 and 2006 lists.

Many thanks.

"Frozen Desire: The Meaning of Money" by James Buchan.

Sagan's "Demon-Haunted World". His final warning to the Human Race. I'm starting to re-read it today.

Robert,
For scince fiction, do not neglect the old magazines--particularly "Astounding" (before it became "Analog"), "Galaxy," and "The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction." Many of the stories that appeared fifty years ago are now only to be found in out-of-print anthologies--though some of these paperback anthologies are excellent (e.g. the "Star Science Fiction" series that began in the mid-fifties.)

As you are probably aware, "Astounding/Analog" was written largely by for and about engineers. The science and engineering had to pass the high standards of John W. Campbell, Jr., and if you can go through a stack of back issues of these mags you will not be disappointed. The best years were from the forties through the mid to late fifties.

"Galaxy" focused more on social criticism. I recall one novella or novel from "Galaxy" where the economy had crashed in the U.S. and people were forced to work at pitiful wages with pick and shovel, mining shale for the last remnants of oil in the U.S. Some of the short stories were brilliant and not without literary merit.

For good writing you cannot beat "The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction," and although their forte was not "hard" science, they would sometimes pick up rejects from the other two magazine, because they paid slighly lower rates.

My advice: Find a book/magazine store like Uncle Hugo's (Gernsback) in Minneapolis, bring a few dollars and enjoy many hours of browsing. Old magazines missing covers or otherwise damaged can often be purchased cheaply, and there are tons of old paperback novels out there of which maybe 1% are well worth buying and reading.

A couple of novels I put on my old list of recommended reading, and I'll just repeat the two classics by John Brunner:
"Stand on Zanzibar" (population)
"The Sheep Look Up" (ecocatastrophe)

Find a book/magazine store like Uncle Hugo's (Gernsback) in Minneapolis, bring a few dollars and enjoy many hours of browsing.

Well, I do have a 4 hour layover in Minneapolis (and a 3-hour layover in Amsterdam). Maybe I will get out of the airport and do that.

Robert,

"The Road" by Cormac McCarthy.

Hell of a book.

Have a great trip!

Garth

For your science fiction reading list:

Footfall by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle

For your thought provoking list:

Billions and Billions by Carl Sagan

I read Billions and Billions. Good book. Footfall is really familiar. I have read some Niven, but not that one. I think I have picked it up and looked it over before. I will keep an eye out for it.

Thanks for divulging your reading list! Here's my top 3 challenging books (not on your lists):

* Critical Path by Buckminster Fuller
* Cradle to Cradle by William McDonough
* Natural Capitalism by Amory Lovins et al

Topsoil and Civilization by Tom Dale and Vernon Carter. It's out of print now, but you can get a free copy in .pdf format here:

www.soilandhealth.org

It's a free online library based in Tasmania. There's some interesting stuff over there.

I will download this one. The price is definitely right. :)

It's a free online library based in Tasmania.

I downloaded this one. It is free, but they ask for a donation. If you don't donate (I wouldn't have gotten the book had it not been free) they try to put a guilt trip on you:

Dear Non-Contributing User,

From its inception in early 1997 until January, 2005, nearly all the costs of the Soil And Health Library were paid for by me, Steve Solomon. After seven plus years of financing the library to the cumulative tune of about $7,000 I began to feel some resentment. About that same time I also realized that the library's content was not increasing as rapidly as it once had been. My negative emotions were burdening the library's progress.

So I did a series of meditations, seeking advice from the Universe about this matter. And was given this answer: "insistantly and directly ask those using your library to contribute a small amount; a membership fee." So I am doing just that.

If you had already made the small contribution I request you would not be seeing this letter. But you have not yet joined the library. You have not exchanged ten Euros for access to highly valuable information that has been painstakingly assembled and provided for your benefit. Consequently I feel entitled to give you a bit of my viewpoint.

Let me first remind you that your request for a copy of whatever it was you asked for has not been denied. This is and shall remain a free public library because there are people who can gain access to the world wide web but who feel so impoverished that a donation of ten euros seems entirely beyond them.

Your use of this library is being subsidized by the contributions of others. You are getting something whilst giving back nothing. This is an "out" exchange. I am entirely certain that if you wish to make spiritual progress in your lifetime then you must get "in" exchange with others. To get your "karma" in order it is probable that you in particular will have to overemphasize the "in" part of your exchanges because there probably have been many other instances in your past of being "out" exchange. My own past failures to have my own exchanges in balance is one reason I make and for seven years almost entirely paid for this library myself.

I will suggest three books. Just 3 that I have close to hand. I can suggest far more since I have been reading voraciously all my life.

Fiction: The Traveler by John Twelve Hawks.
A fast read,not too deep.Hawks claims to live 'off the grid'.
A colony bypassed by time , voluntarily.

Serious nonfiction:

The Cosmic Landscape by Leonard Susskind
Largely laying out the Anthropic Principle. Not a Intelligent
Designer handbook. It refutes that and exposes others views
that he finds unsupportable.Deals with current QM quite a bit.
Superstring theory,etc.

On the Kabbalah and its Symbolism by Gershom Scholem.
Jewish mysticism, esoteric to a high degree
Not the toughest of the books on this subject but not easy
either.

A sample: This 'Life' (the mystic encounters) however, is not
the harmonious life of all things in bond with God, a world
ordered by divine law and submissive to His authority, but
something very different. Utterly free, fettered by no law or
authority, this 'Life' never ceases to produce forms and to
destroy what it has produced. It is the anarchic promiscuity
of all living things. Into this bubbling cauldron, this
continum of destruction, the mystic plunges.

I suggest that current books on advanced physics , quantum mechanics , superstring theory and other topics in the area make very fine thought provoking reading. Deep and challenging.

For further fiction I suggest Neal Stephenson and his Baroque series of 3 very large books. Quick Silver, Confusion and the 3rd I have not purchased as yet. I am still in the middle of Confusion. Fiction but yet well researched. I looked up Leibnitz for instance and found his writing very close to the true facts. In fact Leibnitz was a polymath and easily the equal of DaVinci IMO. His calcalus is the one currently in use and not Newtons. He predicted quantum mechanics I understand. Relativity as well. An enormously gifted man. Many historical figures in Stephenson's novels. The beginnings of the worlds financial systems etc.

Airdale

Was wondering if you have read any of Ken Wilbur's material? And what your thoughts were.

Also, Quantum Mechanics is also one of my "Leisure" reading subjects. Great stuff.

John

Ken Wilbur, No doesn't ring a bell.

Ahhh QM is laden with mysteries of the universe. Very tough reading but the insights are tremendous. Electrons communicating across the universe faster than the speed of light!!!

Probability Wave collapses due to conscious observance by a sentinent being? 'Pigs can't cause wave collapse'?. yada yada

And its all changing rapidly. Yet to me the Anthropic Principle seems the tie breaker. I am just a reader who is amazed at the utter complexity that we are as yet no where near understanding in the slightest IRREGARDLESS of what InfinitePossiblities states as being so simple and easily controlled.

Thanks for the hint. I need to hie me to a book store soon anyway. Will key it into my PDA.

Second the motion on Neal Stephenson's Baroque Trilogy - the 3rd is System of the World. Plus his Cryptonomicon - main characters descendants of those of the Trilogy but set in WWII and the present time. Cryptology plus great plot, characters and writing. Cryptonomicon was written before the Trilogy and one could start either way.

Also in SF: Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy is absolutely tops, esp. for those interested in sustainability and in political organization, which is virtually all of us at TOD.

Social Sciences: "1491" by Charles Mann. What Native Americans were really like before Europeans "discovered" them, and startling descriptions of some of the things the English and Spanish did to them.

Biology: I recently really enjoyed Richard Fortey "Trilobite: Eyewitness to Evolution". You might not think 200 or 300 pages of Triolobites would be all that interesting, but it's sort of like S J Gould's writing where some oddball area of biology is fleshed so well that you enjoy every page.

Fictional/ Literature: "Interpreter of Maladies", J Lahiri- best collection of short stories I've read in years.

"Crabgrass Frontier" by Kenneth Jackson goes over the history of transportation and how developments patterns are determined by the primary mode of transportation, and how the US gov't systematically encouraged the suburbanization of America.

What Native Americans were really like before Europeans "discovered" them...

That sort of thing is right up my alley. I have been fascinated with Native American life since I was about eight years old.

Just finally got 1491, it had great reviews.

Reading now: Blue Gold, by sorely neglected writer Maude Barlow, think she's Canadian.

She lays out, with a co-writer, our global water problems. You need a bit of a stomach for this. We have real water problems. I think she runs a global network on the subject as well. Also known for NAFTA-related work. I like women writers on "tough" subjects, there's not nearly enough of them.

Looks like a "sidestep" away from black gold that might fit your head.

BTW: no winter in Scotland either?

No book has taught me more on First Nations, (the proper term), the respect for the land is awe-inspiring.

Strangers Devour the Land

A Chronicle of the Assault upon the Last Coherent Hunting Culture in North America, the Cree Indians of Northern Quebec, and Their Vast Primeval (Paperback)
by Boyce Richardson

One of the most interesting books I have ever read on any subject, and still available, just googled the title, even Amazon carries it.

One of the best researched Native American novels is Crazy Horse by Mari Sandoz. She grew up playing with Sioux children, learned the Sioux language, and was obsessive compulsive in detailing and cross referencing everything in this book. When she finished writing the book, she went back and rewrote it to sound like the cadence of horses hooves galloping across the plains. Also, if you haven't read Willa Cather since you were young, try her again. I ordinarily prefer nonfiction myself, but her ability to use deceptively few and simple words to convey an incredible depth of thought is astounding.

There are piles of excellent monographs on various Native American cultures. I think on the Hopi Indians alone you could probably find a hundred worthwhile books. (Inside joke among anthropologists: "What is the typical extended family among the Hopi?" Answer: "Husband, wife, children, mother-in-law, anthropologist.")

From the age of eleven it has been my good fortune to know and hang out with some dozens of notable anthropologist--in large part because my father was one. You'll never go wrong with ethnographies of the Truly Great Anthropologists--people like Kroeber who published early in the twentieth century. Certain tribes, such as the Crow and the Cheyenne seem to attract the most brilliant writers--or maybe there is something about the cultures of the northern plains Indians that brings out the best in cultural anthropologists. Surely no tribe is more interesting than the Cheyenne--but that is not meant to slight other Native cultures. (The Canadian Cree are another of my favorites among many.)

The writings of anthropoligists before roughly 1875 are less reliable than later sources; for example, some of the traits ascribed to the Iroquois by early nineteenth century writers are imaginary. BTW, if you know anthropologists, you can get stacks of old books, free, because their offices overflow with literally thousands of copies (often duplicates) accumulated over the years. I'm a shameless scrounger, but I've also given away over two tons of books during my career in academia.

RR:
An oldy from the 70's.. 'The Starship and the Canoe'. About Freeman Dyson and his son (George?).. two generations, viewing the big journey both similarly and wildly differently. Author slipped my mind.

Also look at Watership Down, if you want to go back to Youth and the serious Quest for a better home, all at once.
(Richard Adams).. and of course his 'The Plague Dogs', set in the Scottish Highlands, might be one to mention here.

Bob

"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies.. and if they catch you, they will kill you. But first, they must catch you, digger, runner, listener; Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed."
.. Said the Lord Frith to el-Ahrairah

I can't even write that without getting misty.. Good Travels, Robert

Some history. Of specific people, places.

For ex. Montaillou, by Le Roy Ladurie

amazon

That's the best in the genre I could think of right now. Very valuable.

I also second the choice of 1491

It was probably the most 'mind blowing' of books I've read lately. I think Mann does an excellent job of presenting a balanced picture of the anthropological evidence, unlike some tomes in which the author obviously has an axe to grind, nevertheless, the weight of evidence makes it hard to deny that at the least, our current picture of pre-Columbian Western Hemisphere life has been badly lacking.

I noted a few books on evolution on your list. Did you already read Biologist's recommendation:

Weiner, Jonathan: The Beak of the Finch. Vintage Books, Random House, New York?

This is about the evolution happening today, real-time, at amazing speed, and about the people studying it. Fun to read...

One of my favorite books too.

The Darwin's finches on this little island are found to be evolving over just the few years of the study. The process is driven by an erratic, weather-derived "cycle" of alternating proliferation, overshoot, and collapse.

Based on your previous favorites, here are some science fiction recommendations:

Banks, Iain M., Use of Weapons
Chiang, Ted, Stories of Your Life
Schroeder, Karl, Lady of Mazes
Stephenson, Neal, The Diamond Age
Stross, Charles, Accelerando
Wilson, Robert Charles, Spin
Wright, John C., The Golden Age

By the way, it's really remarkable how few science fiction authors have incorporated peak oil into their cognitive models of the near future. When peak oil is mentioned, it's always a very shallow end-of-civilization gimmick and interchangable with nuclear holocaust or asteroids striking the Earth. "Mad Max" is about as subtle as it gets. I saw in one interview that Kunstler is working on a novel about post-Peak life. As far as I know that will be a first.

There's a thread at PO.com with a discussion of peak-oil related novels. While most are generic apocalypse scenarios, a couple are specifically energy or oil-related. "Ill Wind" and "Wolfbane," and a couple of others.

End-of-civilization novels are a long, hoary tradition in science fiction and some of them have even mentioned energy and petroleum -- but again, only as a shallow gimmick. There has been more intelligent, realistic modelling of peak-oil scenarios on The Oil Drum alone than in the entire field of science fiction. As Eleanor Arnason said, "... we are living in several science fiction disaster novels at once."

She said,

What are we — as science fiction readers and writers — doing about [peak oil, epidemics, hunger and environmental problems]? Historically, science fiction has been about big problems, use and misuse of technology, the broad sweep of history, and every kind of change. Historically, it has been a cautionary and visionary art form. Are we continuing this tradition? Are we writing books that accurately reflect our current amazing and horrifying age? Are we talking about the kind of future we want to see and how to begin creating it?

Or are we, in the immortal words of the preacher in Blazing Saddles, just jerking off?

Philosopher Kent Peacock made similar observations about the current state of the field of philosophy. It seems that "conventional" leaders in the cultural sphere are largely absent on the issue of Peak Oil.

I'd be remiss if I didn't recommend:

Black Easter, By James Blish.

It's a beautifully written novel by a true wordsmith. Sort of an end of the world sci-fi/fantasy novel.

Garth

My gosh you read a lot.
Reminds me of a haiku:

Hurry get things done
Tomorrow will be today
And yesterday gone

Anyway.....

Into the Cool, Eric Schneider and Dorian Sagan
Holistic Darwinism, Peter Corning
Dr. Tatiana's Sex Advice to All Creation, Olivia Judson

too many to contemplate

A great historical account of Battle of Little Bighorn
Son of the Morning Star, Evan Connell

Haven't read any good sci-fi in a while. Seems to be a dying art form
although I did enjoy
Newton's Cannon, can't remember author. It is a series

Here is a list of the books that have at one time or another been recommended multiple times to me:

Overshoot by William Catton
The Extended Phenotype by Richard Dawkins (I have read a lot of Dawkins)
Genius by James Gleick
To Say Nothing of the Dog by Connie Willis
Cryptonomicon and the Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson (I have read 2 of his books)
Neuromancer by William Gibson
The Collapse of Complex Societies by Tainter
Into the Cool by Eric Schneider and Dorian Sagan
Spin by Robert Charles Wilson (I may have read this one)
The Beak of the Finch by Jonathan Weiner
The Traveler by John Twelve Hawks
Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century by Howard Bloom
The Road by Cormac McCarthy
Demon-Haunted World by Sagan

What I am going to do is start with these, and also check out the others that have been listed. I will first see if the Aberdeen Library’s online catalog says they have them, and if not then I will buy them for the trip over.

Thanks to all for the recommendations so far. Keep ‘em coming.

Robert

You have quite a list above. But since you are leaving Montana, and have an interest in biology,
I suggest a neglected biome of the earth, so important to Montana, and by a local author

"Grassland" Richard Manning

also important to Montana biology

"World Fire The culture of fire on earth." Stephen J Pyne 1995

and should you look for prose, don't neglect these award winning Montana authors--Ivan Doig or William Kittredge, if you haven't read them already.

One general science crossing all disciplnes is

"The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" Thomas S. Kuhn

The Aberdeen Public Library has about a third of the titles I listed. It doesn't have Tainter or Catton. I checked Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Ouch! I could blow my book budget on Tainter. I got a Barnes and Noble gift card for Christmas, and I think I will see how many books on the list I can pick up before I run out of money.

The UK has a wealth of used book stores. Far more than here in the U.S. I have friends who go to Edinburgh mainly for the used bookstores.

For new books Seminary Co-op, Chicago. Where Amazon goes when they can't find it. Replaces and beats Blackwood's London cold.

Scifi
Briefing For A Descent Into Hell, Doris Lessing
Invisibles series, Grant Morrison (graphic novel)
Transmetropolitan series, Warren Ellis (graphic novel)
Poetry
Pieces of a Song, Diane di Prima
The Butcher's Apron, Diane Wakoski
Novels
The Pickup, Nadine Gordimer
Let it Come Down and/or The Sheltering Sky, Paul
Bowles
Filmscript
In Girum Imus Nocte Et Consumimur Igni, Guy Debord
(in French or English, only the palindrome is Latin)

It's a vacation. Skip the engineer stuff.

Robert; I would highly suggest something by Ken Wilbur. One of the most translated modern writers.

His theory of "Everything" is pretty neat.

I would give this one a try.

Integral Psychology

A couple of reviews.

"The first truly comprehensive map of the human mind."
—Larry Dossey, author of Be Careful What You Pray For . . . You Just Might Get It

"Ken Wilber is a national treasure. No one is working at the integration of Eastern and Western wisdom literature with such depth or breadth of mind and heart as he."
—Robert Kegan, Professor of Education, Harvard University Graduate School of Education, and author of In Over Our Heads

"In ages to come, historians may well view Wilber's work as the pivotal insight that legitimized the return of consciousness and spirit to our age. For this exciting page-turner, psychology owes him a millennial debt."
—T. George Harris, founding editor, Psychology Today and American Health

Description of Integral Psychology
The goal of an "integral psychology" is to honor and embrace every legitimate aspect of human consciousness under one roof. This book presents one of the first truly integrative models of consciousness, psychology, and therapy. Drawing on hundreds of sources—Eastern and Western, ancient and modern—Wilber creates a psychological model that includes waves of development, streams of development, states of consciousness, and the self, and follows the course of each from subconscious to self-conscious to superconscious. Included in the book are charts correlating over a hundred psychological and spiritual schools from around the world, including Kabbalah, Vedanta, Plotinus, Teresa of Ávila, Aurobindo, Theosophy, and modern theorists such as Jean Piaget, Erik Erikson, Jane Loevinger, Lawrence Kohlberg, Carol Gilligan, Erich Neumann, and Jean Gebser. Integral Psychology is Wilber's most ambitious psychological system to date and is already being called a landmark study in human development.

http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/author/263.cfm?&startRow=16

His work of 4 quandrants and "all Levels" is an incredible framework.

Peace

John

RR,
wow, I was surprised to find "the singularity is near" on your list. I too was blown away by the possibilities he predicts but you have to admit Kurzweil is a sort of antithesis of the PO movement. I can only comment with any expertise on his medical observations and predictions, and I can say they're way overly optomistic and many of his medical predictions are already proving false.

I agree that Kurzweil is incredibly optimistic to the point of being unrealistic. The reason the book blew me away was just to think about the possibilities. That's the same reason The Long Emergency blew me away - thinking about the possibilities.

When I was reading Singularity, I kept waiting for him to address future energy supplies. He essentially argued that computers are using less and less energy, and therefore our energy needs in the future will go way down. I can't stress how far off the mark I think this argument is.

I had to put the book down near the end when he started explaining why humans have to be the only intelligent life form in the universe and nothing will be able to stop computer-enhanced human intelligence from expanding throughout and possessing the entire universe in the near future.

Youch! Yeah, it evokes the image of someone striding blindfolded and confident into a wood-chipper.

Or as I recalled the other day.. "DesCartes Thinks he Thinks, therefore he Thinks he Is.."

There was a petulant diatribe called the Cyberspace Declaration of Independence, which ranted about 'our world of pure thought is one you can't follow us to (Dad!)..' ach!

OK, Here is a snippet.. And I like Barlow, and the intent, in some sense.. but come on!
(He wrote some of my favorite Dead songs.. Ripple, I think.. etc)
______________________
http://homes.eff.org/~barlow/Declaration-Final.html

A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace

by John Perry Barlow

Governments of the Industrial World, you weary giants of flesh and steel, I come from Cyberspace, the new home of Mind. On behalf of the future, I ask you of the past to leave us alone. You are not welcome among us. You have no sovereignty where we gather.

We have no elected government, nor are we likely to have one, so I address you with no greater authority than that with which liberty itself always speaks. I declare the global social space we are building to be naturally independent of the tyrannies you seek to impose on us. You have no moral right to rule us nor do you possess any methods of enforcement we have true reason to fear.

Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. You have neither solicited nor received ours. We did not invite you. You do not know us, nor do you know our world. Cyberspace does not lie within your borders. Do not think that you can build it, as though it were a public construction project. You cannot. It is an act of nature and it grows itself through our collective actions.

You have not engaged in our great and gathering conversation, nor did you create the wealth of our marketplaces. You do not know our culture, our ethics, or the unwritten codes that already provide our society more order than could be obtained by any of your impositions.

RR,

I couldn't think of any books to recommend you, so I composed a nursery rhyme for your trip. I hope you enjoy it.

Oh, Aunt Betty Lou

Oh, Aunt Betty Lou,
Whatever shall we do?
The milk from the cow has run dry.
Shall we give her a week?
Shall we give her a month?
Or shall we head into town by and by?

SAT:
So you're baaaaack....

Would you care to give us another glimpse into your crystal ball?

WeatherGlass,

We're in a bottoming period here. It's been going on for several months now and will probably continue into the spring. Back when oil was in the mid-$70's, I put in a ladder of buy orders starting at $57 and extending down into the low $40's. So things are pretty much taking care of themselves at this point. I like to plan in advance like that because it gives me more time to take up interesting hobbies like knitting and writing nursery rhymes. I think oil will continue to bounce around here as it goes about forming a bottom. It's a process. My view is that we're in a long-term commodities bull market, so I see this as a buying opportunity. I'm a very cautious investor, so I buy in small increments. It keeps me sane. Others think that oil will eventually revert to the historical average of $24 a barrel. I don't think that they are correct. I haven't been able to buy any gold because it won't go as low as I want it too. I don't know what the deal is. So frustrating. And when are the stock markets going to collapse? Oh, well. By the way, I noticed that you didn't make any comment about my rhyme. What is that all about? It's a peak oil rhyme, man! It's not about milk!

I have $1,000 on the line with respect to oil prices this year. Super G is holding the money for us:

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2007/01/1000-bet-on-oil-prices.html

I think my money is safe in 2007.

I may have missed it, but why has the other party to this bet not shown themselves? I would love to know their reasoning for taking the challenge.

cheers

Hi SAT:

The rhyme?? What? Oh, oh, that.

Brilliant, man brilliant.

I'll teach it to my 3-year old tonight!!!!

He essentially argued that computers are using less and less energy, and therefore our energy needs in the future will go way down.

Apparently, Avatars consume as much electricity as Brazilians

Walsh notes that on average there are between 10,000 and 15,000 avatars in Second Life at any given time, a number that's growing rapidly. He wonders: "How much power do 15,000 human beings consume daily compared to 15,000 avatars?" Hmm. That's an interesting question.

"The Complete Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson...especially if you have young kids.

You should definitely read "Genius" - IMO far more readable than Gleick's "Isaac Newton". Can be demoralising though - if Feynman can make the likes of Murray Gell-Mann feel inferior, what hope is there for the rest of us?

Others:

Touching the Void - Joe Simpson

The inspirational story of one man's will to live when he broke his leg 19,000 ft up in the Peruvian Andes. His partner's actions remain a subject of controversy in the climbing community to this day. Makes you feel guilty if you've ever thrown in the towel because you thought the cause was lost. You're never dead till you're dead.

Reminiscences of a Stock Operator - Edwin Lefevre

Lefevre's thinly-disguised biography of speculator Jesse Livermore was written in 1923 but is still regarded by many professional traders as THE most valuable investment book ever written. Very readable, and you'll immediately recognise parallels between trading psychology and irrational decision making in many other spheres of life.

The Quest for Consciousness: A Neurobiological Approach - Christof Koch

Perhaps the most accessible book on contemporary neuroscience. Koch details his research with the late Francis Crick, and their quest for the 'Neuronal Correlates of Consciousness', focusing primarily on the human visual system. Not an everyday read, but I think you'll enjoy this if you're interested in biology. You end up with some useful dinner party anecdotes too :)

Nab End and Beyond: The Road to Nab End and Beyond Nab End - William Woodruff

Probably unheard of in the US, but this is a combo of two books that were extremely successful in the UK. Woodruff chronicles his journey from appalling childhood poverty in the 1920's to the hallowed halls of Oxford University. Anyone who thinks life is tough today should read this. Another inspirational book, demonstrating that living in deprivation doesn't mean absence of community or pride. I bet your wife would like it too.

Speaking of books...a mailing list I lurk on is abuzz over a report in Publisher's Weekly saying the last quarter sales at book stores like Borders and B&N were abysmal. It being a science fiction writers' list, they think this means society is going paperless. I wonder. Given that retail sales in general were disappointing, maybe it's just a sign of an economic downturn.

I do wonder if the publishing industry is shooting themselves in the foot. I read one analysis saying that there's pressure in the publishing industry to produce books that can only be read once. Since they don't get any money if you re-read an old book instead of buying a new one. Hence the emphasis on suspense/thrillers/mysteries, where once you know how it ends, you're unlikely to want to re-read it. Well, I am not likely to buy a book unless I anticipate re-reading it several times.

I think the reason sales are down is that there is mostly cr*p out there. The fiction being promoted is all by worn-out Names working to formula. Most of the nonfiction is the ten thousandth diet book or fitness book or self help book or memoir of somebody uninteresting. During all of 2006 I purchased not one single book published that year, but I bought plenty of used books and a new Barnes & Nobles hardcover cheapy edition of a classic.

It is not the Net that is killing book sales, it is the low quality of what the publishers are trying to get us to buy mindlessly. If you ever fly first class, it is so funny: Everybody is reading a hardcover from the short list of "must" reading in management or business--alomost all of which are thin rehashes with a little bit of new vocabulary to give the illusion of originality.

You wanna' sell new books? Publish some juicy meaty ones. Instead we get scores of wanna-be best sellers imitating last year's best selling titles. These publishers deserve to go broke. Barnes and Nobles, insofar as they are in on this (and they are) also deserves to go broke, though it is a good place to meet single people and drink Starbuck's.

I could go on, but this rant is long enough.

Every time a new book comes out I read or reread an old one.

I catch a lot of book stuff on "Book TV" (the C-Span 2 channel on the weekends). Unfortunately for B&N and Borders, once I see most book talks then I'm no longer interested in reading the whole book. I've got the gist of the book in the 1-hr talk/q&a session. Saves money and (more importantly) time.

Also re: "mostly cr*p out there"

I'd say that there are too many things for which a book is written but an article would do -- but the publishing system isn't set up for writers to make decent money on an article.

DS

I was with you until the drinking Starhucks.

Let me use your style:
Cheap, ripoff, poorly made , imitation by incompetent monkeys that tries to and fails to imitate real espresso. Basically flavored milk drinks with ersatz espresso and some foamy shit floating on top. They couldn't pull a good shot if their lifes were about to be forfeited.

Next time ask to see the shot after the pull and look for crema. You likely will only see black swill. Thats why they trash it with somuch flavoring. My son drinks a Venti Caramel Machiatto...from StarFlucks , he is drinking dog piss. I fixed him a real cappa with my machine and he refused to drink it saying it was not right. Sighhhhhh.

Another great European drink translated into trash by the hucksters of the strip malls.

But there is no where else to go. The bad has driven out the good.

Try this site sometime. www.home-barista.com Ask someone there about StarBucks.

Sorry for the rant. Myself I prefer a good Americanos(made myself) with a tad of Irish Whiskey if I don't have the time to work the machine.

Really OT. Sorry for that too but good coffee is worth drinking.
100% Arabica whole beans , grind yourself, run thru a decent Bunn Coffee Maker. Use good water. Pick out the missionaries first...light colored beans that didn't get roasted properly and make the coffee bitter. A few in each handfull maybe. Work I know but worth it.

Come to Chicago
Metropolis on Granville.
Charmers on Jarvis
In Evanston. Brothers K on Main
Crema. Yes.

Starbucks is where I go to meet a woman on a first date. I invariably have tea there--have never sunk to drinking a Starbucks coffee in my whole life.

But thanks for the coffee rant--with which I entirely agree.

"Wings of Madness-Alberto Santos Dumont and the invention of flight" by Paul Hoffman.

In 1903 he was already barhopping in his personal derigible the Baladeuse (Wanderer) -- anchoring it to gas-lamp posts. The very thing you'd fanatasized about in a previous thread.

"For some years prior to 1952 I was working on a history of American reform and over and over again my research ran into this fact: an enormous number of men and women, strikingly different people, men and women who were to lead 20th century America in a dozen fields of humane activity, wrote or told someone that their whole thinking had been redirected by reading "Progress and Poverty" in their formative years. In this respect no other book came anywhere near comparable influence, and I would like to add this word of tribute to a volume which magically catalyzed the best yearnings of our fathers and grandfathers."

- Dr. E. F. Goldman, Princeton University historian
http://www.wealthandwant.com/themes/About_HG.html

Yay, a discussion on TOD that I can make a useful contribution too. Not only am I single and thus gifted a fair amount of time to read, I'm a fast reader and consequently get through a lot.

The Last Generation by Fred Pearce provided a very good introduction to global warming, I'm not quite as lost as I was previously. Tim Flannery's The Weather Makers was another good introduction although I did have some issues with the feasibility of his suggestions.

James Lovelock's The Revenge of Gaia was *extremely* thought provoking. I'm still thinking through the points he raises.

Of the ones you've mentioned as being on the likely reading list Catton, Tainter and Weiner are all excellent.

In sci fi, I've been working through some best of anthologies, and Gardner Dozois edited The Best of the Best, 20 years of the Best Science fiction. If you haven't read a lot of sci-fi short stories, that's a good place to start. And Orson Scott Card edited another anthology of classics called Masterpieces: The best science fiction of the 20th century. Being anthologies, some of the stories likely won't challenge your mind, but others will make up for that!

And one to finish. David K Shipler has written a most staggering book titled 'The Working Poor: Invisible in America' He provides copious detail about how hard it is for Americans stuck in low wage jobs. Beyond how tough their experiences are, what also staggers me is when I ask myself what will happen to these people when peak oil hits and how will they react? It is precisely the group of people that Shipler studies who are most vulnerable.

Lindsay

I still think Fooled by Randomness is a must-read. At one level it highlights how much BS is thrown around as knowledge in the financial press, how much randomness is presented as cause-effect, and if you read it at the meta-level, it has a lot to say about human nature and prediction in general.

I gave my copy to a friend who was getting seduced by a day-trading company (buy our software, make big bux). It was interesting that he rejected the book as strongly as he did ... but it kind of conflicted with the idea of easy day-trades.

http://www2.cera.com/ceraweek2007/register/1,3283,,00.html

Does anyone have $5500 to attend CERA week. It would certainly providse interesting fodder for these pages.

I'll put up $50, and put in $10 additional for 5 other people who put in $50. We should send one of the people who took copious notes at the ASPO conference in Italy. If one of the peak oil organizations is planning to send someone, please let me know which one and I'll send the check to them.

Heard on CNBC this morning.

After the inventory report came out this morning, the CNBC reporter on the floor of the NYMEX said one floor trader told him:

"We are gonna bang it then buy it!"

Meaning they were going to sell, knock the price down, then buy and take profits as the price rebounds. They make a profit in both directions if they are correct, and they are very likely to be correct. And the traders, knowing the usual pattern after the inventory numbers come out, are far more likely than not to be correct. Bullish numbers usually drive the price up then they usually fall back down. Bearish numbers usually do the exact opposite.

Ron Patterson

re: Chavez nationalizing oil and decreased output.

It isn't at all clear to me that Chavez is the slightest bit interested in responding to what the market asks. Output will very likely go down as expertise has been and will be lost. Some of that expertise is coming to Canada.

Chavez is staunchly opposed to the Global (IMF/WTO) view of the world. One of his more controversial plans is curtailment of the independence of the Central Bank.

His concern is for the Bolivarian revolution, South America, and the rest of the world be damned. He comes from a poor family and his genuine concern is for sharing the wealth, what ever wealth that may be, with the poor. In Bolivarian fashion, he is seeking a renewed independence from what he perceives to be another colonial power, Globalisation.

His intentions with respect to the poor majority are good and he is already having some success. Certainly the conduct of the last election, entirely electronic, should be held up as a model to the world. If there was any doubt about his legitimacy in 2002, there can be none now.

As for Chavez' personal ambitions, I'm keeping a watchful open mind. As part of his constitutional reform he is seeking the possibility of remaining President long into the future.

Why is Venezuela importing crude oil?

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=bondsNews&story...

QUITO, Jan 10 (Reuters) - Ecuador has agreed to ship heavy crude oil to Venezuela in the first half of this year in exchange for diesel, Galo Chiriboga, the president of Ecuador state oil company Petroecuador, told reporters on Wednesday.

Petroecuador agreed to send the first batch of 36,000 barrels per day of Napo heavy crude oil extracted from the fields once operated by U.S.-based Occidental Petroleum (OXY.N: Quote, Profile , Research) starting in March, he said.

In exchange, Ecuador will receive 220,000 barrels of diesel from Venezuela by the end of February in what Ecuadorean officials have said will save the country millions of dollars by shunning intermediaries.

Precisely what Venezuela's motivation is, I don't know, but Equador doesn't have the refining capacity for their heavy crude. They also don't have the hard currency to pay for imports of refined products, or should I say the hard currency comes at a very heavy price.

Equador just announced a major bond default so obtaining hard currency will become even more difficult.

Equador's new President is a Bolivarian and this appears to a friendship deal. Chavez is actively seeking this type of cooperative synergy in the region.

Perhaps there are refinery problems in Ecuador? It may be that rather than Venezuela needing crude, it's Ecuador that needs the refined products.

Damn refreshing to see him nationalise the commanding heights of the economy, with no mealy-mouthed nonsense about irreversible privatisation, globalisation, governance, stakeholders, all the gangsters' pabulum we are used to.
Not that the socialist course is necessarily right for everyone. By no means! But we badly need it to be back on the table.

You're seriously praising the incubation of yet another autocracy in south america?

Oh he talks the talk that the leftists like, but keep an eye on things like 'constitutional refore to legislate by presidential decree'

Hes like just any other politician with absolute power in his sights.

W?

He's like just any other politician with absolute power in his sights.

W?

Yes. In this way the two are similar. Fortunately for Americans the legal framework is strong enough to ensure that Bush can not prevail over it.

Bush will be out of office after 2008 and will never be able to come back.

Chavez isn't willing to leave his future up to the electorate, and unfortunately doesn't have to.

He has always left it up to the electorate, as you know very well.

Bush Lifts Oil and Gas Ban in Alaska's Bristol Bay:

How does 200 million barrels of oil "enhance America's security"?
(USA uses approx 21 mpd)

How does 5 trillion cubic feet of oil "enhance America's security"?
(USA uses approx 60 billion cubic feet/day)

Bristol Bay is prime commerical fishing ground. Just curious but does this administration have any non-suppy side ideas? Do they laugh at Roscoe Bartlett? At H. Res 507?

1. It doesn't.
2. It doesn't.
3. No, they do not.
4. Yes, they do.
5. Yes, they do.

Next?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/09/AR200701...
With Iraq Speech, Bush to Pull Away From His Generals

By Michael Abramowitz, Robin Wright and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, January 10, 2007; Page A01

When President Bush goes before the American people tonight to outline his new strategy for Iraq, he will be doing something he has avoided since the invasion of Iraq in March 2003: ordering his top military brass to take action they initially resisted and advised against.

Bush talks frequently of his disdain for micromanaging the war effort and for second-guessing his commanders. "It's important to trust the judgment of the military when they're making military plans," he told The Washington Post in an interview last month. "I'm a strict adherer to the command structure."

But over the past two months, as the security situation in Iraq has deteriorated and U.S. public support for the war has dropped, Bush has pushed back against his top military advisers and the commanders in Iraq: He has fashioned a plan to add up to 20,000 troops to the 132,000 U.S. service members already on the ground. As Bush plans it, the military will soon be "surging" in Iraq two months after an election that many Democrats interpreted as a mandate to begin withdrawing troops.

Pentagon insiders say members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have long opposed the increase in troops and are only grudgingly going along with the plan because they have been promised that the military escalation will be matched by renewed political and economic efforts in Iraq. Gen. John P. Abizaid, the outgoing head of Central Command, said less than two months ago that adding U.S. troops was not the answer for Iraq.

Bush's decision appears to mark the first major disagreement between the White House and key elements of the Pentagon over the Iraq war since Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, then the Army chief of staff, split with the administration in the spring of 2003 over the planned size of the occupation force, which he regarded as too small.

Interesting how the press that could only find generals complaining about the lack of troops when they could be used to criticize Rumsfeld has no trouble finding generals to say more troops are not the answer now that Bush is advocating additional troops.

Found some Swedish 2006 statistics regarding alternative wehicle fuels.

During 2006 were the wehicle gas sales 43.9 million Nm3, roughly equivalent to 43900 m3 of petrol, an increase of about 24% compared with 2005. 54% of the wehicle gas sales were biogas, 23.7 million Nm3 an increase of 47% compared with 2005.

3447 wehicle gas cars were registered during 2006, a doubling of the 2005 registrations. The total number of gas cars and trucks is close to 12000.

There are now 68 public wehicle gas stations and 27 non public for busses, garbage trucks etc. Its expected that 30-40 public stations will be opened during 2007.

2006-12-31 were the number of E85 pumps 652, around 30 open per month. The number or registered E85 wehicels is about 49000 with monthly sales of around 2000 but E85 sales are fairly flat due to higher ethanol price.

The Swedish population is 9 million and 313,812 cars were registered during 2006.

All natural gas is currently imported from Denmark. There are proposals to import Norwegian, Russian and LNG from unknown countries. There are fierce opposition against natural gas from biomass proponents although there are suggestions for parallell natural and biogas infrastructure building. The most keen natural gas customers are heavy industry and district heating cogeneration via combined cycle gas turbine plantas.

WorldChanging has this posting with a 10 min. video clip which covers the impact of natural gas production in western Wyoming. Astounding to see.

It includes some info on the massive Jonah Field. Here is a link to some other data on what is going on, including rig counts.

It's not your typical gas field.

The principal technical challenge in Jonah is identification and stimulation of productive intervals in a 3,000' to 3,500' section of stacked lenticualr fluvial sand/silt/shale sequences which comprise the Upper Mesaverde, Lance, and Unamed Tertiary formations. Hydraulic fracturing is used to open (stimulate) the tight sand formations that exist more than a mile and a half underground, which allows gas to be recovered at economic rates.

Last April in TOD:Europe, buzzinator posted on this place

Living in energy central here in Wyoming, people from other parts of the country have no idea what an impact gas, and coal bed methane development are having on the renewable resources of the state (i.e. wildlife and rangelands). The Jonah field in western WY, not far from Jackson, is a monster field. The gas developer is pressuring the BLM for permission to drill nearly 3,000 new wells as infill. The purpose is to get the gas out faster ( thus depleting the field sooner.) The largest migratory herd of pronghorn are now squeezed into a very narrow migration corridor as they leave the upper Green River basin moving south to winter range. We are talking here about 10 acre spacings if this huge number of wells is approved. The airshed is not meeting clean air standards due to the phenomenal amount of dust, Pinedale is jam packed with people and not enough housing, crime rises, and the quality of life in what was until very recently rural WY goes down the tube.
Up in the Powder River basin in the northeast, the water removed from the coal to release the methane is a huge, contentious issue. Some profit by it, many don't.

Anyone know any more about the economics of this? The fact that they want to do more infield drilling so soon is curious.

Remember last winter, when there were rolling blackouts in Colorado? Some industry insiders said that all the gas fields that feed Colorado are old and in decline...except Wyoming. Apparently, Colorado isn't connected to the same pipeline system that feeds the eastern U.S./midwest, so even though New York and Ohio had plenty of natural gas, the lights went out in Denver.

In support of their plans to increase the # of wells from 500 to 3000, the developers said:

Current restrictions for drilling will allow only about 35% of the natural gas trapped in Jonah Field formations to be produced. This prevents production of up to 4.5 TCF, enough to serve all of Wyoming households for 468 years.

It doesn't mention Colorado, so I guess they are hosed. It's a good thing Wyoming has its own standing army.

I found the discussion from last year. According to someone who once worked for CIG:

He also said all of CIG's wells are in steep decline, except the Jonah field in Wyoming.

http://wwwa.accuweather.com/pressroom.asp?pr=wx_258.htm

WINTER TO COME "WITH A VENGEANCE"
Prolonged Period of Cold and Stormy Weather Appears on the Way

(State College, PA - January 8, 2007) - The unseasonably warm winter experienced by much of the country is likely to "turn on a dime," in the words of AccuWeather.com Chief Long-Range Forecaster Joe Bastardi.

Bastardi said that the weather pattern from mid-January through mid-February has a chance to mimic the winters of 1965-66 and 1957-58, each of which ended cold and stormy after a warm start. A worst-case scenario would be if this winter plays out as did the winter of 1977-1978.

Similar to this year, 1977-1978 was a winter with a waning El Nino. After a tepid start, the second half of the winter was noted for its cold and remarkable storminess, including back-to-back-to-back blizzards in the Northeast.

"Those who think that winter 2006-2007 is going to remain mild are in for a shock," said Bastardi. "Winter is likely to come with a vengeance. A week from now, we'll start seeing truly cold air across much of the country, and we expect this change to last."

Added Bastardi, "Whether we end up with seasonably cold weather, or something far worse, remains to be seen. There are indications that this winter could parallel severe winters of the past. Even should we not see an extremely cold and snowy conclusion to winter, you can be sure that by the end of the month, when those in the Northeast are shoveling out their driveways and sidewalks, the mild weather we're experiencing now will be a distant memory."

WINTER TO COME "WITH A VENGEANCE"

It certainly blew into Montana this afternoon. I was walking around without a jacket on earlier today. Right now, we are having a blizzard out there. Very heavy snow and the temperature has really dropped.

The front should be here in a couple of days. At the moment in the middle of the night it is 28 degrees F above the average low for this time of the year.

long range forecaster = bad darts player

I was just sent that same clip and as a Pinedale resident verify that it is just as advertised. I am begging for an explanation for the need to immediately pump those fields dry. The only hint of a clue was a statement a year ago from the CEO of Questar predicting a sharp drop in USA gas prices once all the LNG terminals are completed. Is he trying to beat the crash? (which I doubt will occur). I'm a biologist, neither a geologist or economist, and need some help understanding this situation. Any volunteers????

It would be very interesting to have a feature article on LNG in North America. I've seen the technical presentations showing the locations and capacity and planned completion rates.

What I would like to see is a sound analysis of the overall feasibility of LNG in North America. Where do the extra ships come from? How long will it take to get them online and who is going to build them? Where do the contracts come from? Kitimat has the go ahead to build but is having difficulty getting contracts. What are the chances of the LNG market being liberalized? I'm sure there are many other critical questions dealing with whether or not LNG can or cannot be a practical solution, quite aside from the officially projected completion rates and NIMBYism.

A sharp drop HO HO HO. 4.5 Tcf may be 468 years for Wyoming but it is 75 days worth for the USA. LNG will never impact the price of NG in the US, however NG depletion will.

What do the “think tanks” think?
I seldom post, but I worry that many here are too ready to undervalue a class of institutions by painting them all with the same brush. Judging by remarks I’ve read here over the months, it seems somewhat popular to assume that the big think tanks are generally PO aware, if not complicit in some master plan to benefit the elites should the SHTF. I want to encourage some serious consideration of think tanks as we have every reason to believe their brainpower and access will one day play a positive role in PO mitigation (should TPTB ever decide that the time has come).

My point is that we may benefit from taking some time to demystify and classifying think tanks in an effort to understand how they really impact public policy and long range planning. From what I gather, real think tanks (those populated by science oriented folk that subject themselves to peer review) don’t sit around and ponder interesting issues that happen to pique individual interests. Whether they are focused on policy issues or research, many are in fact competing for government funding to drive much of the work they do. This usually means they are working on problems related to the popular agenda and dependent on the whims of both parties to varying degrees over time. The more established and objective think tanks like Brookings seem to be increasingly overshadowed by a proliferation special interest institutes like the Heritage Foundation. Heritage, a good faux think tank example, selectively hires for those that share their conservative ideology (the special irony here being that Heritage sees itself as a think tank while having general disdain for innovation and out-of-the-box thinking).

Do we have any reason to believe that Congress or the current administration are providing funding or are soliciting informed testimony and policy guidance regarding PO and related energy issues? Poking around at a variety of think tanks websites, the trickle of energy related work does not lead me to think so. Keep in mind that the current administration seems to have little use for science or independent points of view. Despite the statement that the US is “addicted to oil,” no actions are being taken that suggest planed government interventions or major policy changes. Other than further encouraging industry and the free market to address supply issues for as long as possible, proactive measures have been largely relegated to military action in Iraq and perpetuating the status quo via the Saudi dynamic in the Middle East. Our President is fundamentally belief driven, apparently not inclined toward intellectual curiosity, he has deep faith in the market and the American way of life. He would appear to have little use for “think tanks” beyond PNAC.

While hoping that the new Congress and next administration will be more inquisitive on energy issues, I do believe we should reserve special disdain for institutes like PNAC. The birth of PNAC suggests a uniquely cynical administration or era. These folks did not come into office asking questions and commission independent studies, they came in armed with a comprehensive ideology complete with their own special interest “think tank” to authenticate preconceived policies in the guise of scholarly analysis and reports. PNAC muddies the think tank waters even further than Heritage in my mind. Its creation strikes me as a seasoned hand’s effort to play the beltway in an attempt to legitimize and promote a novel, if highly questionable, foreign policy. It does so while further undermining legitimate research and analysis efforts by increasing the background noise.

It is bad enough that everyone can point to a report these days to justify a position. The fact that the media treats them all with legitimacy is worse. We need to be a more discerning than the media. I sincerely doubt this administration has commissioned any sort of master plan beyond what we’ve seen with PNAC. There may be a vision and a belief system playing out, but I see no evidence of a real plan and no mobilized cabal of crafty government funded think tanks.

I suspect there are other views and opinions on this topic.

Your conclusions correlate very well with my recently expressed hypothesis that our "addiction to oil" (in the US) is a result of more or less deliberately persued policies. Clearly every large industry benefits from it - from oil and auto compaies to the military-industrial complex.
Several questions:

- Do TPTB (whichever they are) know that oil is finite? Of course they do.
- Do they know that our ability to extract it is about to hit it's limit? Definately. All evidence show so.
- Do they plan for mitigation? Like you observed - they don't really, nothing else but claptrap on this one.
- What do they plan to do about it then?
For me the only credible answer left is - to use it. To remain and expand their power. PO will be the new Soviet Union, the new threat and the new "War on terror" if you wish. TPTB inherently need an external threat or some kind of mechanism to keep the populace under control and justify the policies they want to implement. FOr example once shortages kick in, there will be little resistance to expanding our military adventures in the Middle East. Concerns about the environment will be forgotten and the public will by gladly giving half an wage to fill up in the local Exxon-Mobil gasoline synthesized from coal, tar sand or oil shale.

On the international scale, PO will bring geopolitical instability. Who will benefit from it? I think that it will be mostly those who induce it and sell weapons to all sides. And after the sides inevitably weaken, come to "liberate them" and impose control over their natural resources. So far this game is quite familiar.

The bottom line is that IMO, think thanks hardly care about how we are going to transition to oil-free economy. On this problem, even a quick look at the situation reveals that we have so much fat to burn and so much viable options for alternatives that the problem does not pose any significant threat to the system as a whole. What they plan is to benefit as much as they can in the medium term from the transitioning period we are about to enter.

I have less confidence in the competence of elites than you, perhaps. I guess I define TPTB as our elected officials as influenced by their own agendas (for bettor or worse) and special interests. On top of this is the momentum of legacy policies that define our national identity and woven together provide the foundation for the status quo. The influence of the electorate fall in somewhere below these components. There is little political will to readdress any of these long-lived polices that overstay their usefulness unless the popular agenda or a powerful special interest legitimizes action.

The result, for example, is that we continue to subsidize the continued growth of the suburbs long after population growth has called the wisdom of the policy into question and many of the original motives have lost thier shine. Even if big agriculture were to raise the alarm and draft some legislation to preserve farmland by containing sprawl, I would expect they would find themselves in a real battle with TPTB. My point is, once unleashed, I'm not sure anyone really controls TPTB. My local city officials are certainly slave to what they understand as market forces and “growth is good” thinking despite feedback from the community to the contrary.

I anticipate that TPTB will generally continue on course until something triggers the unified voice of the electorate to make themselves heard starting at the local level. I don't think this generally happens unless the people become uncomfortable and even if it does, as you point out, fear could be used by TPTB to suppress this.

So I think I tend to see a menu of human frailties (i.e. apathy, incompetence, fear, faith, infighting...) as more central to our problems as compared to willful and effective long range planning of the selfish elite. Not because the elite don’t scheme to amass power and pull the strings, but because they really are not very good at it and the status quo limits them to operating in a narrow band. When the Bush administration swept in, they exhibited an unusual degree of coordination, but it appears that the level of planning and sophistication required overcoming the status quo undermined even their attempts to drive change on their terms. The neo-cons appear to be dropping out left and right as a result.

Change is hard, bureaucracies are tenacious, and people really aren’t inclined to think for the long-term when left to their own devices. The elites will certianly have thier work cut out for them in the uncertian times ahead.

These days the term, 'think tank', is loosely applied to a number of very different entities, which is unfortunate as it tends to blur distinctions.

The large multi-service international management consulting firms, such as Booze Allen, Arthur D. Little, Battelle, SRI, etc. have often been referred to as think tanks. As a one time employee of one of the above, I can attest that they really enjoy being called think tanks.

Then there is a second tier of smaller firms consisting largely of the so-called 'beltway bandits' that primarily feed at the federal government contracting hog trough. These like to think of themselves as think tanks, but they are nothing more than contractors.

And finally, there are these 'institutes' that are little more than fronts for various political interest groups. These include such organizations such at the American Enterprise Institute, the Hoover Institute, etc. A main difference between the true consulting firm and one of these political hack organizations is that the former actually derrives its income from selling consulting services on the open market, whereas the latter is largely funded by interest groups.

Obviously, all these various entities often referred to as think tanks are very different from each other and are engaged in very different kinds of activities. Regardless, if you pay any of them the right amount of money, you can generally get the sort of 'answers' that you are looking for. One of their functions is to lend an auora of legitimacy and impartiality to an already arrived at agenda or conclusion.

In my view, over the last decade or so the term 'think tank' has become so overused and so diluted as to be pretty meaningless.

My impression is that quite a few here think that a short deflationary period will be followed by massive inflation. I follow Bill Gross's monthly newsletters and found this month's a little unsettling. Following are some quotes:

Is the Fed impotent now – a 110-pound weakling getting sand kicked in its face by the global financial community as it creates massive liquidity? Or to put it more politely, can Bernanke continue to control the U.S. economy and inflation – or is he, like everyone else, at the mercy of the recycling of Asian and BRIC reserves, the reinvestment of petro-dollars, and the hardnosed capitalistic proclivities of hedge funds and investment banks?
...
With Asian central banks more concerned about currency levels than reinvestment returns, petrodollar recipients more worried about parking their burgeoning wealth in perceived safe haven bond markets than debating whether the U.S. 10-year belongs at 4.7% or 5.7%, and multinational corporations still leery of deploying their huge cash reserves in capital spending alternatives, the one and perhaps only major player that is particularly price sensitive is the Fed. If 5¼% is the right rate for a goldilocks economy then there it will stay. If it generates accelerating inflation then it’ll go up; if accelerating unemployment then it’ll go down.
...
Rather than digress into a micro discussion of the U.S. housing market and implications for a growth “disconnect” between the American and global economies, I find it most helpful to analyze the current restrictiveness of 5¼% short-term yields by comparing that benchmark to the growth rate of nominal GDP. Many investment managers are almost oblivious to nominal U.S. GDP levels these days – as a matter of fact, the Commerce department itself nearly buries the nominal number 8 or 9 paragraphs deep in its quarterly press releases. There are times when you can’t even find it in the text. But it is nominal, not real GDP that reflects the return on a nation’s capital, and nominal GDP that points towards our ability to pay our bills. Since almost all yields reflect a real plus an inflationary component, it stands to reason that the ability to pay debts expressed in nominal terms should be viewed in a similar fashion when analyzing growth. By so doing one can understand, for instance, why a deflationary environment can be so deadly to a modern-day, debt-ladened economy. It might be growing in real terms, but if nominal growth sinks below the zero line then the servicing of debts becomes onerous and can lead to liquidity traps that implode financial markets.
Nominal GDP levels are so important to the Fed in fact, that there are rather explicit although slowly changing levels of growth below which the Fed cannot allow them to sink for an extended period of time – lest recession rear its ugly head.
...
Because 5% has become so “standardized,” government, mortgage, and corporate bond yields have centered around that level as well – the Lehman Aggregate index now yielding approximately 5.30%. 5% is how fast we grow and 5% is what we owe; the two rates are thus symbiotic, one feeding off the other when the economy is in balance. Problems arise however when nominal growth rises too far above 5% - reflecting most probably accelerating inflation – or too far below 5% - usually indicative of declining real growth.
...
“Dampen” the reflex it has, along with producing lower real growth, such that nominal GDP in the 3rd quarter of 2006 hit an annualized level of just 3.8%. Admittedly, one quarter does not a Fed decision make, but hypothesize with me for a second what Fed Funds rates we might encounter over the next 12 months as housing, reduced consumer spending, and lower levels of inflation affect nominal growth. It seems likely to me that 2% real growth and 2% inflation or some plus/minus combination of the two are leading us to 4% nominal GDP levels in 2007. While that may seem like Goldilocks to some – especially those who exclusively follow real GDP levels – it is not enough to support an asset-based economy which has built in costs of debt averaging 5%+. Should the economy slow to 4% nominal without a downward Fed Funds response, then stock and housing prices will likely move lower as well.
...

My impression is that quite a few here think that a short deflationary period will be followed by massive inflation.

My impression is the opposite: that a lot of people think there will be a brief period of hyperinflation, then massive deflation.

That is my leaning...hyperinflation followed by deflation. For the simple reasoning that in the beginning, people will still have the money/credit to attempt to buy things thereby driving the price up on a lessening supply, but once people spend it all and are maxed out on credit with no job they'll be desperate for money. With a lot of people out of work and stuff still on the shelf, deflation.

Housing prices are already going down; I think they will go down some more.

The stock market will go down too. There are just a couple of things I don't know:
1. When this downward movement will begin.
2. How far down it will go.

Financial markets fluctuate all the time. Newsletters must pretend that there is significant news out there so that they can keep their subscribers.

Actually, all the financial information you need you can get by glancing at "Barron's" once a week or at the "Economist" once a week. Personally, I like to read the print version of "The Wall Street Journal" because of the good general news coverage, book reviews, film reviews, etc. I hardly ever look at the financial section even though I have an MBA in Finance and can understand it easily; the problem is that it is mostly boring--really really boring.

I rarely look at the price of an investment I own. If I own some shares of Berkshire Hathaway Class A stock, I'm never going to sell it; why would I care what the market quote is on it? If I'm long on silver, what do I care about month to month or year-to-year fluctuations? If I have most of my portfolio in TIPs, why would I want to keep track of fluctuations in their price?

When I was young and foolish I subscribed to newsletters. Now I read "The Economist" and "The Wall Street Journal," and that is plenty. I like both of these publications because the quality of writing is high, though of course I never waste time on the WSJ editorials. (Some of the articles on the editorial page, however, are very good.)

When I was young and foolish I subscribed to newsletters.
Was that an insult, Don? I just happen to consider Gross a "guru" and I visit his website once a month to read what he has to say (for free). I also read the WSJ in print "when I'm in the mood", otherwise agree with all you say--life is too short and it's boring.

No insult intended!

My point is that (in general) newsletters are a waste of time and money.

Will Al-Sadr really be confronted?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

The last time they tried it, oil skyrocketed to almost $45 a barrel.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/09/markets/oil/